Kyle Stark - President, Stark Contrast

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the abca's podcast. I'm your host ryan brownlee. This episode is sponsored by Netting Pros. Netting Professionals are improving programs one facility at a time. Netting Professionals specializes in the design, fabrication and installation of custom netting for backstops, batting cages, dugouts, BP screens and ball carts. They also design and install digital graphic wall padding, windscreen, turf, turf protectors, dugout benches, dugout cubbies and more. Netting Professionals is an official partner of the ABCA and continues to provide quality products and services to many high school, college and professional fields, facilities and stadiums throughout the country. Netting Professionals are improving programs one facility at a time. Contact them today at 844-620-2707 or infoettingpros.com, visit them online at www.nettingpros.com or check out Netting Pros on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn for all their latest products and projects. Make sure to let CEO Will Minor know that the ABCA sent you. Now onto the podcast. Today's ABCA podcast guest is one of the baseball minds behind one of the most respected player development turnarounds in modern Major League Baseball. Kyle Stark spent years helping shape the Pittsburgh Pirates organization, serving as Director of Player development for rising to Assistant General manager, Vice President, Assistant gm. During that stretch, he played a major role in rebuilding the Pirates farm system and helping guide the club back into postseason contention in the mid 2010s. Before his time in Pittsburgh, Stark also worked in baseball operations with the Cleveland Indians, building a reputation as a thoughtful leader the deep understanding of organizational development, culture and talent growth. But what makes Stark's perspective unique is that his work extends far beyond baseball. Since leaving the Pirates organization, Stark's transitioned in leadership coaching and consulting, helping teams, businesses and organizations build stronger cultures, improve communication and maximize performance with his company, Stark Contrast from player development and front office strategy to leadership and culture building. This conversation is packed with insights for coaches, athletes, executives and anyone interested in building winning organizations. Let's welcome Kyle Stark to the podcast. All right here with Kyle Stark, President Stark contrast but spent 12 years with the Pirates vice president, assistant GM, director of player development and then three years with the Guardians assistant coach at Saint Bonaventure. But Kyle, appreciate you jumping on with me. [00:03:01] Speaker B: Yeah, fired up to be here. [00:03:03] Speaker A: Hey, what were you doing before Saint Bonaventure? [00:03:06] Speaker B: I was in school so finishing up law school at University of Toledo and helping out baseball program there and then went to Saint Bonaventure and coach and got my grad degree. [00:03:16] Speaker A: Nice. [00:03:16] Speaker B: What's your grad degree in MBA So [00:03:19] Speaker A: you got your NBA and you went to law school before that? [00:03:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep. [00:03:23] Speaker A: Was that kind of your track then, to get into pro baseball? [00:03:26] Speaker B: I, you know, I, I tell people that I always wanted to be a big leaguer, just like anybody that plays this game. And unfortunately, I learned way too early that that wasn't going to happen. And so I said, you know what? I need to do something to, to differentiate myself. And, you know, you think about this, this was whatever, late 90s, this, that wasn't necessarily a popular track for non pro ball players to have experience there. And so I knew I had to do something different. I joke with a bunch of guys now. If you look at my resume now, you'd be like, you wouldn't even get an interview for an internship. But back then, yeah, a law degree, mba, coaching college, it kind of stood out a little bit. But it was all aimed at wanting to, to work in pro ball, work at the highest levels. [00:04:03] Speaker A: And then you probably had to take an internship with the Guardians then, right? Like that was your only way in, right? [00:04:08] Speaker B: Yeah. No, when I got, when I got talked about a few different clubs, old school, wrote letters to every team, actually got a decent number of responses back, which, which shocked me and ended up Cleveland being the best, best fit, best opportunity, just good organization, lots of really smart dudes, lots of really good. Yeah, opportunity there. And so it was going to go on as an intern. And then that was the same year they fired their major league pitching coach. I think it was in spring training. They moved everybody up. So they reached out and said, hey, would you be interested in being our short season pitching coach? Which again, at that time, that just was, that was not, you know, not normal. But I said, yeah, I'd much rather be on the field than in the office. It didn't work out. They had a scout do it. So I ended up starting as an intern. And people always laugh. They'd be like, oh, law degree, mba, you must be really smart. I'm like, I did all that and I'm making 500amonth. I don't know how smart I am, [00:05:01] Speaker A: but it seemed like the Guardians at that point were kind of in the forefront of kind of the new age of things. [00:05:08] Speaker B: Yeah, Cleveland was a great, I tell people, great spot. And it's really continued. But like, before I was there, I mean, John Hart was the gm and you had, I think at one time there were like eight general managers working in that front office. And then when I got there, Mark Shapiro was the gm, Chris Antonetti, assistant gm, Mike Chernoff as director of ops. John Farrell was in the office. Ross Atkins is in the office. All guys that have gone on to be GMs or big league managers or whatever else. And very small office, very open to different ideas, different thoughts. Just if you were smart and talented, they gave you opportunity. And a really good mix of some, we'll say maybe newer thought, but also some really good traditional old school baseball guys. It was just a great foundation for me to learn. Yeah. All over the game. [00:05:55] Speaker A: How do you get to that point where you bet on yourself like that? That's not a track at that point. But how do you bet on yourself like, hey, I can actually do this. [00:06:03] Speaker B: Yeah, probably some, some ignorance and some dumb, dumb confidence. You know, I, I come from a rural town in pa. I mean, you know, there's no. I, I didn't know any big leaguers, you know, personally, whatever else, I just was not around it. But I knew I loved baseball. I, I knew that the game had been really good to me and I was just passionate about wanting to. Yeah, try. Try my skills at the, at the highest level. And so some of it's probably irrational confidence, some of its ignorance, probably. But ultimately it was, hey, I want, I want to pursue this and see where it, where it all shakes out. [00:06:39] Speaker A: And seemed like the path with the Guardians and the Pirates were similar as far as just changing culture. You know, just talk a little bit about that as far as changing the culture of both, because it seemed like you guys had a pretty good turnaround with both. [00:06:52] Speaker B: Yeah. So Cleveland was fortunate, went in early 2000s, so they had their amazing run in the 90s, were turning things over. John Hart left, I think, to go to Texas. Mark then felt like, hey, we were going to have to turn this over, over. And so I was able to be there in that process. They had made a couple big trades already, had made the Bartolo cologne trade and made a couple trades. So they had started to turn over that next wave of talent. But I was fortunate to be there and get exposure on the scouting side, the development side baseball, all the different dimensions that go into to build a championship organization. The cool thing for me that I noticed with Cleveland was they had a culture that was the first place I'd ever probably been around where a group was intentionally talking about those, you know, using those words and intentionally talking about values and how these things were going to dish. Shape up. So I got to see it play out probably at a more mature phase. And then when we got hired in Pittsburgh, a chance to go in and actually create it. But Cleveland walking in, in the process of turning around Pittsburgh, going in and, hey, we need to turn around and getting a chance to experience that full process. [00:08:00] Speaker A: What were the standards they set in Cleveland that carried over? [00:08:06] Speaker B: I mean, the, the common things that stood out with Cleveland was it was very much focused on. On the whole, so the collective mattered. Very much focused on process, very much focused on. On doing the things that matter to increase your chances of success. Very much focused on on being innovative. And I wouldn't say innovative in terms of trying to be different, but in terms of not being afraid to ask, why do we do this? The. And not being afraid to say, hey, is there a better way? So those, those, those principles really, you know, I think shape that, and those are still true to this day. Still very close with a number of guys over there, but also influenced. I think I naturally gravitated to some of those ideas, but really reinforced some things as we went into Pittsburgh. Because when we went to Pittsburgh, you know, we inherited worst team in the big leagues, lowest payroll, and worst farm system. It's like, well, we're not going to out Yankee this, so we're going to have to figure out a different way to do it. [00:09:03] Speaker A: I mean, how do you drop your ego with that, with the process of saying maybe I don't know, or is there a better way? [00:09:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the cool thing is, I think a lot of times when you get hired as a coach or a leader or whatever else, I think there's this sense that we feel like we're supposed to have all the answers and know everything. And the reality is nobody that's working for us or playing for us or whatever else thinks that way. Like, they're not expecting that. They're expecting you to care. They're expecting you to be competent, but they're not expecting you to have all the answers. But we put that on ourselves. And so I think when we free that up, free ourselves up to say, hey, collectively we can get to the best answer. I have a role in that for sure. I've got to create an environment where people feel that way, but it's almost frees us up this. Let's stop posing, pretend and posture and acting like we've got it all figured out, and let's go work really hard to figure out the best way. So in some ways I think it's. It's checking the ego, but in some ways it kind of frees us up to say, hey, I got something to add here, but I don't have to be perfect, because collectively we can challenge sasquo and maybe come up with a better way. [00:10:05] Speaker A: Is the key to that streamlining communication from. From bottom up or. Or top down? [00:10:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think that's a. Definitely a huge part of it, I think, to your point, like, I think the first part's creating the. The conditions for people to. To trust that, like, because I think every organization says these same things. Right. Very rarely do I go in an organization and they're like, you know, champion in some different idea. We talk about these things. But as a leader, if I really created this environment where people feel like, hey, my opinion does matter, hey, we're not going to act like we got to figure it out. Hey, we are really going to sell out to trying to get better every single day. And so if I've created those conditions, then a big part of that is the communication up, down, you know, in all different directions. Because without that, then we end up getting siloed. We end up getting isolated. We end up. And then so the mistrust just overtakes because what we're talking about here is really hard to do. And so I've got to create the right environment where we can truly trust it as we go live it out. [00:11:06] Speaker A: Do you think you could emulate that at the college level? Do you think so? Yeah, it would be. It'd be very similar at the college level. [00:11:14] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, as I spend time at the college level, professional level, baseball, other sports, business, military, wherever the environment is, I joke around people. I said, look, people are people. It's not like they're different. And excellence is excellence. Those principles that. That play out consistently show up in. Now we got to figure out what does it look like for us. And each situation presents its own unique challenges, for sure. But. But the principles of the principles. People are people. And so it can definitely show up in any environment. We just got to decide, okay, what does it look like for us in this specific environment? [00:11:50] Speaker A: You know, with the limited resources, with the pirates, how do you handle that? Because there's always going to be that noise, and there's still that noise. Well, they don't have as much as everybody else. How do you battle that? [00:12:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the noise has never gotten louder, right? [00:12:03] Speaker A: Yes. [00:12:04] Speaker B: You know, I keep telling people, at some point we got to run out of money. Right? I don't know that we've. We've seen that yet. But. But I think it is an. It is an acknowledgment of we can't lie to Ourselves and say money doesn't matter. It does. Resources definitely matter. But at the same time, we also can't get deterministic and say that resources will win the day and automatically. And I just, you know, there's plenty of examples where you can out people and out process other organizations. You know, you get the right people and have the right processes in place that maximize people. You know, I think one of the things that we tend to maybe miss today forever, it was always about the team, right? I mean, both scheme Beckler's speech, the team, the team, the team. And I think as we've gotten smarter and broken all the things down to component parts and we've maximize those parts, we think they'll just magically come together. And no, it still comes back to the team, the team, the team. How do those parts interact with each other? And so the best leaders, the best organizations, the best coaches figure out those, figure out how those things come together to leverage those. And that's where you see those, those marginal gains. You see those differences in terms of resources, again, it doesn't make it. It doesn't mean that anybody can do it anywhere. It doesn't mean that the resources don't matter. But resources, ultimately what they do is they just give us more margin for error. And so as you remove resources, we just have to be that much better. And you either see that as an opportunity that you really like, or you see it as a threat that paralyzes us. [00:13:35] Speaker A: Do you think the Rays are the best example we have in the big leagues? [00:13:39] Speaker B: I think the Rays are a great example. I think Cleveland continues to be a great. These organizations that you're talking about a decade of doing it and, and not just doing it the same way, continually trying to find different ways. Because the interesting thing is, as you know, we're a copycat business. So as soon as somebody does something good, we're like, oh, that's the answer. We're going to copy it. So these, these secrets don't last long, which means we have to constantly be in this pursuit of, hey, is there a better way to do it? Hey, how can we do this better? Hey, how are we growing and learning as we go through it? [00:14:11] Speaker A: Yeah, but isn't it, at that point you might be too late, right? Don't you have to, like, be the first in, like, like if you're waiting for somebody else to do it, by the time you end up doing it and implementing, it's probably too late. [00:14:23] Speaker B: Well, and here's the thing where resources come into play right where if I have resources, I've got a bigger margin for error. I don't have to be first to the race. If I don't have resources, then I do have to be. And I don't even necessarily know that first, because sometimes first isn't the right answer either. Because sometimes it's better to let somebody else go through the door first and realize, hey, that didn't work. We can learn from them. I've certainly been guilty of that. But I do think it requires some more boldness to take some more risks, which can be hard when you don't have resources. You don't feel like you've got a net. Well, that's the very thing that requires us to make sure that we take some of those chances, because we have to. [00:15:02] Speaker A: How do you handle that next job? Because obviously you're good at the one you're in, but then the next job is going to provide different challenges. How do you get over that hump of, okay, you're prepared for the job you're in, but now you're moving to a new job. How'd you handle that situation? [00:15:17] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a great question. And probably if you ask some people, they'd say great. And some people probably say not so great, you know, because I think there are. There's lessons learned. And I think the big biggest lesson is the very one you mentioned in terms of. It's the whole idea what got me here is not going to get me there. So it's like, hey, this. I think when people realize that the promotion, the next job you're getting is not in an addition of resources, it's a new job, it's a different job. You know, you talk. I mean, I've been around some really good assistant coaches that became head coaches. It's like, wow, this is completely different job, you know, or assistant GM to GM or whatever else it may be. But I think we think that it's just going to be an addition of responsibilities. And it's. No, it's a completely different job. And some of the things that we loved about our current job, when we go to the next job, we're like, wow, that's not there anymore. And I miss some of that. So I think the quicker we can realize those things and realize the higher up you go, the further you progress, the less it is about your performance and more about creating the conditions in the environment for others performance. And that's hard for us to do because a lot of us, our athletes, we're achievers, we want to Perform. And the further you go, the more you realize, hey, this is less about my performance and ultimately trying to support and create the right environment for other people to go perform. [00:16:32] Speaker A: Yeah. How do you delegate? [00:16:34] Speaker B: Yeah, well, and I think that it's a great question. You know, I think part of this perspective is recognizing what are we really signing up for? Was fortunate in Cleveland to work with Carl Willis, the major league pitching coach who's still there or has gone back there. And I learned a ton from Carl. Just, you know, he's coached a number of Cy Young award winners. Very different, Is able to work with a lot of different players and get the most out of them. And Carl and I used to always joke about, you know, when he became the major league pitching coach, and he'd talk about some of the headaches he had to navigate, and I'd say, so you want to be a major league pitching coach? And then when I got hired as a farm director in Pittsburgh, I call him and be like, man, can you believe I'm dealing with whatever? And he's like, so you want to be a farm director? But I think what that does is you start to realize, okay, what is the job really, as opposed to what did I think it was? And then you can start to say, okay, what are the things that only I can do? Well, I need to make sure I'm crushing those. These other things, even though maybe I can do them better or whatever else, I need to start distributing those to other people. Which comes back to trying to grow and get better, too, is I know when I give somebody else something for the first time, they're probably not going to do it. Great. So can I create an environment where people can learn from it, continue to grow and continue to get better? But ultimately then, to check myself, have I prepared the people I'm leading for the tasks I'm giving them? And I think a lot of times is, as coaches and leaders will give a task to an assistant or somebody else and they won't do it well, and then we get mad at them. It's like, hey, did I properly prepare them? A lot of times I didn't. I just dumped it on their plate and expected them to deliver really well. [00:18:05] Speaker A: Do you feel like the onboarding then got better for you as you went along? [00:18:08] Speaker B: Yeah, because I think you start to gain better clarity of what matters most. Right. And how you want things done. And so that that level of expectation and detail just. It continues to refine. You know, I've been fortunate to spend some time with some really Elite leaders and, you know, some guys that are legends in their coaching profession, and, you know, they're a different coach today than they were 30 years ago because they continue to just better understand what matters to me, what's most important to me, how do I prepare others for this. And that system just continues to get refined over time. [00:18:40] Speaker A: What was the most challenging job you had out of all those, is farm director the hardest job? [00:18:44] Speaker B: You know, it probably is. It's probably also my most rewarding. You know, I just. I loved the. Every day was, you know, you start talking about a few hundred players and a couple hundred staff members. Like, every day there's a. We're in the people business. Every day there's a people problem. Somebody did something, somebody's navigating something, somebody's having a bad day, something. It's just the moving parts. You know, they call the farm director the fireman because you're putting out a lot of fires. But I think what that job did was, number one, it forced you to have to be a really good leader because there's so many spinning plates. I think it forced you to have to figure out, how do you replicate this across things? Because you're talking about, you know, eight, nine teams and multiple countries. And so how do we do that? What. What really matters? How do we replicate it? But I think the other thing that. That, that job does is it forces you to have to decide what's most important. You know, the whole urgent versus important thing. Like, I could spend my whole day just putting out fires, or I can start to manage my day in such a way it's like, hey, what really matters? What are some other things that other people can tackle? It just forces you to. All the. All the buzzwords we talk about as a leader, it forces you to have to figure out, or you're just drinking from a fire hose and you're only doing it for a short period of time. [00:19:58] Speaker A: What do you think Major League Baseball is getting right about player development right now? [00:20:01] Speaker B: That's a great question. I think. You know, it's funny. I was talking with the coach this morning, and we were chopping up the landscape, and I think in a lot of ways, I think we are. We've advanced parts of development better than ever. I mean, there's. There's. There's aspects and dimensions of. Of development that there's no question we're doing better. I don't know that we can say that we're getting the whole better because. And I think part of it's because we look out. And we say, hey, there's some challenges with the product, and that's not just a Major League baseball thing. That's just development across the board, top to bottom within the game. I think, again, we've advanced some specific things, but within that, we end up potentially taking some lessons from that and saying, well, that's the answer. Well, that's the answer. After a guy's been playing for 15 years and he's in the big leagues, that may or may not be an answer, you know, further away. Or we say, hey, if he can do this, you know, if a pitcher x can do this specific thing, he's going to be better yet in isolation. But what happens when the league adjusts? What happens when some of these different things happen? So I think we have advanced specific aspects of development just because the information we're getting, how we're using that information, the tools we're getting, I think some foundational things we've maybe gotten away from, and I think it shows up and causes some challenges for us. And when I say foundational things, I'm not just talking about on field. I'm talking about just some coaching foundations that, you know, we can probably learn from, from some guys that have come before us. [00:21:30] Speaker A: What is that, though? What are some of those coaching foundations? [00:21:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, you know, I think I was having a conversation with a coach here recently. We said, you know, back in the day, you cut your teeth as a coach a lot of times, work in camps, and those were free reps to figure out different ways to say things, different ways to cue, different drills to try different. And really, as you came up, you know, a lot of the debate on coaching was cues and drills. Like what drills did you use? Which cues did you use? How many different ways could you do that? You know, I think, I think old school coaches have potentially gotten labeled as stuck in their ways. I think old school coaches actually had a million ways to do things and they saw every player as an individual and we're going to figure it out. Generally, obviously, there's examples of not the case, but you have that foundation of just knowing this kid in front of me, what does he need? What are the principles I need to know? But then what does this kid need? And I think as we've gotten better with some more information, I think there's a false sense of precision. Well, if I just tell them the right thing, it will get the result I want. And information ain't transformation. Information helps us inform to figure out how to get transformation. But I think Some of those. Those reps further way of understanding development at the lowest level of understanding this kid who maybe not doesn't even want to be there. How do I get him engaged? How do I navigate motivation challenges? You know, all the things you have to learn when you're not dealing with the best player, who's the most motivated? Yeah, those guys are way easier to coach than all those other guys. [00:23:03] Speaker A: But is that the biggest X factor with player development is as when teams adjust or the game adjusts to you, you being able to make those adjustments? [00:23:12] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I'd say probably the biggest X factor. I think it's all. It still comes back to. It's a people business. And how well do I get people? How well do I understand people? How well do I navigate people? How well do I can I navigate this kid in front of me, this young man in front of me who shows up different than he did yesterday? It's like, what's going on? Well, he's 18. That's what's going on, you know, So I still think that's the biggest X factor. I think the next one then becomes similar to what we were talking about with the farm director thing. As we get better information and more information. How do. Do I have a foundation that allows me to process that, Decide what's most important, decide where is this. What does this kid need? Or am I just continuing to seek more, more and more? The best I've ever been around are in a. In. In a process of refinement, which is reduction and getting rid of. And I think a lot of times as coaches and leaders on the way up, it's like more and more and more, the answer's got to be more players. Same way the answer's got. I just gotta need to do more. And the best in the world get to a spot where they're like, you know what? I need to start refining, reducing and. And narrowing my scope. And the only way we can do that is if we've gotten some reps and experiences stubbing our toe, figuring out what doesn't work, whatever else. [00:24:22] Speaker A: The Power of Less is one of my favorite books, by the way. [00:24:25] Speaker B: Very good. The Powerless is a good one. You know, one thing is a good one, but this idea of continuing to. And we can overplay that, right. Where we can be like, oh, this one thing is the answer. No, it isn't. But the ability for us to. You know, I've used the. The. Which is a biblical example, but the idea of pruning a tree in order to get it to grow. That means I got to get rid of stuff, not just add more. [00:24:53] Speaker A: You know, how do you balance that though in player development? Because obviously you want guys to develop, but not at the expense of teaching them how to win too. Because that's always the thing that I think about, like that what professional baseball has to go through is yes, we are trying to develop, but we also have to teach them how to win too. Because Jamie Carroll and I talk about that winning baseball is a skill. Like learning how to win baseball games as a player is a. Is a skill. [00:25:16] Speaker B: Yep. And I love the Jamie Carroll reference because I think Jamie's got Jamie's career are so many development lessons. You know, Jamie Carroll, first of all, doesn't get drafted today. Jamie Carroll does not get the opportunities that Jamie Carroll got. So, you know, and again, if you look at the things we say matters most today, I don't know that Jamie Carroll gets those opportunities yet. He ended up playing in the big leagues for 12 years and was playing shortstop every day at 40 years old. Like there's something different about that guy. But I think as we talk through that, I think when we think about, first of all, I agree with you that a huge part of development is winning baseball. I'd argue that actually the goal of development is winning baseball. Right. I mean, at the end of the day, and this was something that we tried to preach in Pittsburgh, I'm not trying to develop big leaguers. We're trying to develop a championship team in Pittsburgh. Which means how do the pieces all fit together? Which means how do do players understand not just skills in isolation, but situational aspects of this? Have we developed a robust anti fragile player who can handle a lot of different stuff thrown at them? And so I think when we start saying winning and development again, you can't serve two masters. I'm going to pick one or the other and for the individual player, he's going to think about his own development. I think a lot of our development too can become a little bit theoretical about where we'll throw out an ideal buzzword idea and we forget, yeah, but it's in the context of a team or an organization. And how do all these things fit? I've joked organizations, different leaders I'll talk to, they'll say something about this is an example. But they'll say, hey, player centric. If you mean player centric, meaning that the coach cares more about the player's career than their own career, I'm in. But if we think an organization is player centric, well, no, it's organization centric. It's teams that we're trying to build a team. And so if you take that player centric thing too far, then we've got two shortstops on the roster. If I'm doing player centric, they both should play well. The reality is I have to pick and choose and give opportunities. And ultimately those things then should come down to, at the end of the day, good development is winning baseball. It should be aimed at that. We should be teaching these lessons all the time. Otherwise, I would argue, is it really good development if it doesn't lead to that? [00:27:44] Speaker A: Can you develop antifragility? [00:27:47] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I definitely think you can. I think the older we get in life, the harder it is to do, you know, and this is where like none of us come out of the womb antifragile and tough and everything else. So we are a product of our experiences. There's some psychological things that can help just, you know, the nature versus nurture, but the vast majority of this is way more nurture and environment. And so I think this is why college coaches try to pick young men who come from families where they've already learned. That's why pro teams are scouting players where they've already learned these skills. But I do think we are such a productive environment. I mean, you and me can get comfortable in a hurry if we're in society as opposed to an environment that's challenging us to, you know, navigate some adversity, navigate some. There's a book called the Comfort Crisis that's awesome about this. It just talks about this idea of we live in a very comfortable society and we've gotten soft in a lot of different ways as opposed to how am I navigating hard? Am I seeing these things as opportunities to sharpen me, to grow me? So definitely think we can develop it. I think the best coaches very much develop not only players who are, but develop teams and systems that are. [00:29:03] Speaker A: What do you feel like the best piece of technology that's come out here in the last 15 years? [00:29:08] Speaker B: That's a great question. That's a great question. [00:29:13] Speaker A: Could be player development or could be personal, like things you've used technology wise too. [00:29:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I. I think. Let me talk, Let me give a little bit of a general answer, then we can drill down from there. I think anything that increases awareness that's aimed at the ultimate thing we're trying to do is an awesome tool. I think anything that just is measuring for measurement's sake or is creating false senses of what matters most can Be dangerous. So I think I would say that my answer to that question is ultimately, it's. It's less about the tool and more about the person using it. And how am I using these tools as opposed to whether I am or not. I would argue that a coach or an organization, and I think there's lots of examples of this in the college game, would be better off not using it than using it incorrectly. It's just easy for us to become slaves to the. To the tool or to the measurement, and we miss the ultimate outcome. Again, that's coming back to the whole development and winning. If it doesn't point at winning baseball, then we're misusing it. Quick sidebar on this topic. And I think it brings this delight, you know, this tension between old school, new school, or tech. No tech. You know, I think if. If the first tech that came out would have rolled out under the. In the way of sitting down with a Carl Willis and saying, hey, what do you. What are you assessing? Hey, if I told you I could measure that, would that be helpful to you? I don't know a coach that wouldn't use that. But as soon as we say, hey, I have a tool that's going to either make you obsolete or answer your question or fix everything because you don't know what you're looking at, well, there's no question. We got tension. So I use that as an example. I think when we, whatever the tool is, do I understand how it fits for me what matters most to me? And. And do I make sure that the measurement is aimed at what's ultimate and not fall into this place? Well, you have to measure it in order, you know, why guess when you can assess? I agree, but we got to make sure we're measuring the right things in the right ways and not think that that's going to provide all the answers necessarily. [00:31:23] Speaker A: And then the art of that is whittling all that information down to figure out what you want to disseminate to the player 100%. [00:31:30] Speaker B: Because again, comes back to, I think, where we can fall into this trap, where we think teaching is, you know, information is transformation. No, information helps us inform. How do I best need to present this information, present this lesson, teach this drill in order for some behavior change to happen? I just think a lot of times as coaches, we think about learning way too linear. Like, if X, then Y, and like, there's a million variables that go into that, you know, I think when we understand that system is way more complex than that, then I. It's not that I don't want information, I very much do, but it's to then inform how do I then adjust the system and to create some of the outcomes that we want to have. [00:32:11] Speaker A: What are your tips for coaching coaches? [00:32:14] Speaker B: I think great question. It's one I'm passionate about because I think at the end of the day, I think a lot of times we, I think a lot of times we cheapen coaching because we're like, hey, here's this tool, it'll fix this or whatever else. And we're like, no, this person, that's this shepherd as I go through this is absolutely critical. I think we cheapen coaching sometimes in terms of what we think it is. Like it's not just telling people stuff like that's, you know, I think we've got scouts and analysts that say, hey, here's the problem. I think coaches need to figure out, okay, well how do we then solve for that problem? So with all of that, because of how we view coaching, I think a lot of our coaching coaches, resources and tools are aimed at those things. Not that those things don't matter, they do. But I think more importantly as a coach is I need to understand a few things. I think we need to understand number one, that more is caught than taught. So am I modeling the things that like if I want to develop an anti fragile team, am I an antifragile individual? If I, you know, there's an old school coaching maximum of the team takes on the identity of the, of the coach? Well, am I being the things I want to see created consistently. So consistency of who I am and what matters to me, number one, and I don't think we can ever spend enough time as a leader, as a coach, trying to evolve and develop and grow those things. I think the second part of coaching coaches is understanding this results and relationships piece, this mission and people piece like I need to understand both of those variables, understand my bias towards one or the other and recognizing that I've got to be able to do both. I've got to be able people and process both. And then I think the third piece that's important for coaches is just this idea that development, coaching, teaching, learning is way messier than we think and I need to be okay being in messy. Learning requires failure. Am I okay with failure? Learning requires trial and error. Am I okay with trial and error? Learning requires reps and reps and reps and reps and reps until the light goes on. Am I okay with that? Learning involves two imperfect people navigating so As a coach, am I secure in my own skin navigating this mess, or do I want to try to clean it up, rush the process and be the answer? If so, then we're probably going to shortchange development. [00:34:38] Speaker A: How do you challenge your own biases? [00:34:41] Speaker B: I think it's number one, it's being able to ask the question, what if I'm wrong? And if I can go into everything, what if I'm wrong? It forces me to potentially consider some other thoughts, some other perspectives, some other ways of doing it. I think number two is if I truly have a mindset of trying to get better every day, then I should be seeking out results that potentially challenge some things that say, hey, are you on the right thing? Hey, could you do it better? And I think the third piece as a leader that's absolutely critical is have I surrounded myself with truth tellers? Do I have a board of directors, Mount Rushmore Knights of the Round? Do I have a posse that I value that are smarter than me, that will speak truth and challenge me? And if so, then, not that we're going to fix all this because we all got our own issues, but it helps increase the chances of constantly pursuing and, and challenging assumptions. [00:35:36] Speaker A: And that's a drop the ego thing, too. [00:35:38] Speaker B: 100. 100. And again, if I see myself as a coach or a leader as being the one who has to have it all figured out, that's just. It's really hard to be in that spot. And I think all of us have that right. Like all of us. I've never been around a good coach that doesn't have an ego. I've never been around a good leader who doesn't have an ego. So it's like, no, I want you to be confident. [00:35:58] Speaker A: The ego, it's more self confidence for me. I think that's the distinction for me is it's self confidence over egotism. [00:36:07] Speaker B: Yeah. I think when we recognize that ego is there for a reason, it's to protect us. We just need to recognize when that ego hijacks the process. Right. And where it's overly protective at the expense of trying to grow and get better. You know, I'll spend a lot of time talking with players about, okay, what is confidence? Confidence means I'm prepared. It means I'm ready for the challenge. It doesn't mean certainty. It doesn't mean that I've got this all figured out. It just means I'm ready for whatever's coming my way. And so I think as a leader, confidence should show up, as in hey, I'm ready for whatever challenges get thrown my way. Doesn't mean I'll nail it, doesn't mean I'll be perfect, doesn't mean I have all the answers, but it doesn't mean I'm prepared. [00:36:46] Speaker A: This is a Jamie Carroll question, by the way, with today's portal climate, what is one adjustment necessary for coaches to know when coaching a player? [00:36:56] Speaker B: Great question. So I think there's a few things that we've got to reckon. Let me back up real quick. So I think the portal nil. Everything else, I don't think it's changed with the recipe for successes. I think great coaches, great teams have always had these principles. I think what it's done is it's exposed margins for error, it's exposed any inefficiencies we have because now I've got to build a relationship immediately. I can't take well, by the time he's a junior or senior, will be in a good spot, don't have time, I can't. I've got to be able to develop you immediately. Not well by the time he's a junior or senior. And I've. And I've got to be able to select well because I need to know that they're coming in ready for what they're going to face. It's just the three or four year buffer has just been removed. So I think I need to recognize that. I think then the second part of this is I think we have to be aware of where we fall into some. Some lies we can tell ourselves. For example in the portal, why need them to like me because he may leave that. That's a lie we've been telling ourselves as coaches forever. I want the player to let it never, ever plays out well for us. Now. It does mean I have to be way more consistent how I speak truth to him. It does mean the player has to see progress. It does mean the player has to know you care about him. It does mean all those things which we've always known as coaches. It's just that we have to do it immediately as opposed to try to get them to like me. I still believe that if, and this goes for any human, if I feel cared for and challenged, I'm in. Like, if I know that you care about me and you're getting me better, then I'm in. No matter the hard days, the easy days, whatever else. So I think it's just a matter of now. I've got to be able to block out the noise. I gotta reduce the stuff that doesn't matter and I need to focus on that. I think the other part of this is just recognizing this is where the honesty piece comes into play. Everybody knows what people are making, Everybody knows what's. And so I've got to be willing to have honest conversations. I've got to be. Will be willing to navigate the small conflicts. I just have to be able to do all those things where I think in the past I was able to avoid them, but they were stuck with me. The player didn't have an out. So I don't think the recipe's changed. I think it's just that the margin for error has gone way down and we have to be better as coaches and leaders. [00:39:24] Speaker A: Do you think it's more important now to hold kids to standards then? [00:39:28] Speaker B: Very much so. And I think, I think more. More so than ever because I think growing up before society took care of this generally. Now it doesn't necessarily. I think all of us. This is not a knock on today's player. I think today's player is very much a product of us. Like it's us as parents and coaches. So it's a recognize though, that the player has been the center of their world. The amount of money and time spent around travel and everything else, like, that's just real. We have been able to go from school to school, player to play, team to team. You know, we've been able to just go, if it gets hard, be able to go somewhere else because there's opportunities. So those lessons haven't been taught by the time I get them in college. I'd go before that, whatever level. And so I have to see myself as a coach of having to teach those things. I think again, this comes back to as a coach, knowing what is my job. Well, I think more than ever my job is to teach standards and expectations and all those things. I think in the past I could maybe think society took care of it. That's not the case anymore. So I better be really good at it now. I also have to know that I might get a little bit more resistance because maybe this is uncomfortable and it's like different, which is why my level of care has got to be through the roof. My level of being able to teach has to be off the charts because what I'm teaching is potentially counter culture. And so. And they're going to get that message 22 hours a day, my two hours a day better be that much better to be able to drive these things home. So expect, I think more so than ever, we have to. And I think we have to be ready for some resistance as we navigate it. [00:41:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I've said it a lot. I think we've done this generation a disservice because it used to be it takes a village, but now it's like we're in a silo. But then we still throw them out in the real world, which is really hard by the way they are coddled. And then it's like boom, culture shock. Now you're out in the real world where the real world doesn't really care that much. [00:41:27] Speaker B: Well, and I think this is another example. You talk about winning in development, right? Like, I think winning in development, where this for me shows up, is understanding what is the long term goal here. My job's to prepare people for whatever's next. That's my job as a coach. It's to prepare them for tonight, it's to prepare them for tomorrow, it's to prepare them for three years. It's to prepare them for what's next. And so if I teach those lessons, I sell out to those lessons. I don't believe, I mean, outside of some potential player usage, it doesn't cost you ball games. In fact, I think it increases your chances of winning. And sometimes as a coach, I may need to make the tough decision to give this kid, this young man, an opportunity because I believe it's going to pay off down the road at the expense of somebody else. That's the only time where in my mind we potentially sacrifice winning for development. And I would argue we're selling out to winning because it's the things that matter more. So I haven't lowered the bar. I'm still challenging them. But I just know what's our ultimate goal here. I think as coaches, again, it's, it's, it's just good for us to be reminded at the end of the day we want to still be playing at the end of the season. So that means we want to be playing our best baseball. That means everything I should be doing should be about leveraging this moment to prepare us for the next one. And if I have that in mind, I'm going to think about what does this player need, what does this team need? And I'm going to focus that way as opposed to potentially what do I need in order to get a good result right now, which is really hard for us as competitors. [00:42:54] Speaker A: What are the biggest difference between coaching in pro ball when you're in pro ball and now what you're doing? [00:43:00] Speaker B: Yeah, so I think it's, it's funny because I. I'll tell people, in a lot of ways, nothing's changed. Right? Like, I'm walking alongside leaders. I'm helping them, I'm giving them perspective. I'm. I'm growing people. I'm still in the people business. The thing I miss is having a team, you know, having. Having a group of people that we got to get playing nice in the sandbox together that are aligned around the same mission, that are dealing with the wonkiness of the day to day. And I do love having a result at the end of the night. I like having a win or a loss, and, you know, I don't have that and, or the results are different. There's maybe not the immediacy of a win or loss, but I think a lot of times the win or loss at the end of the night can paralyze us if my identity's jacked up. But in some ways, it can be really freeing to let me know, hey, you're on track, you're not on track. And hey, we're doing something that matters. Oh, and hey, let's learn from this to go tackle tomorrow. Like, you know, those dimensions, those aspects are definitely missed in the, in the current role. [00:43:57] Speaker A: Would you go back and change anything when you started consulting? [00:44:03] Speaker B: In terms of when I made that transition, yeah. Yeah, probably because it wasn't what I intended to do. I mean, it was. You know, this was never something I. I envisioned. So, you know, end of 2019, new president, new GM, I get fired in the late November of 2019. Had helped to navigate through some transition. Was asked to take my ball and go home, which, hey, 12 years in Pittsburgh, good run. And so my wife said to me, hey, can you give me six months before you jump back in? Our youngest was still at home. Good kid. Has turned into a good young man. But he was tough on mom. He was competitive son of a guy. And she said, can you give me six months? She said, I'd like a year from you, but can you give me six months? And we were, we were blessed to. To be able to. You know, I had a couple more years on my contract, so I'm like, sure. I'm thinking in my mind, I'm jumping right back in. We'll be good. Well, three, four months later, covet happens. The world shuts down. We start just spending a lot of time together, enjoying it. And then I started having coaches and leaders in baseball, outside of baseball, start reaching out and say, hey, would you help me hire a pitching coach? Would you help me navigate this would you come in and spend time with my leadership team? And so it wasn't anything I intended. It was something we just kind of did. And I thought it was like, okay, this is going to be a season of life until our oldest gets or until our youngest gets out of the house. Well, we're still doing it, whatever, six, seven years later. And so I think going back, what I would have done differently is probably say, hey, if we're doing this, what's it going to be? Let's build this accordingly and start to the same things that you do if you're coaching of saying, hey, what's definition of success? Hey, what are our core values? What are going to guide us as opposed to just kind of evolve into that over time. [00:45:59] Speaker A: How do you handle that in pro ball? Because that's a, for me, controlling the controllables. New regime comes in, you're probably going to lose your job. How do you handle that? [00:46:08] Speaker B: No, it's a great question. So I, you know, we, we had organization made a decision to move on from Clint, which still love Clint. We still live together down. Down here. We don't live together down here in Bradenton. Just love his heart, love what he did for Pittsburgh. Make a change there, like a week later. The president might be getting a little bit of this timeline off, but Frank Coonley steps down. Frank very, you know, driven, set singer for excellence has impacted the game tremendously. That hire, they hire, you know, the organization hires a president very quickly. And I'm flying up for some meetings and I land in Pittsburgh and Neil, Neil Huntington calls me the GM and he says, where are you? I said, I just landed in Pittsburgh. He said, well, you might as well jump on a plane, go home. I just got fired and you're next. I said to him, I said, well, I'm in Pittsburgh. I'm not. Where are you? He says, I'm in the office. So I went in and, you know, hung out with him and Frank was packing up his office as well. And just awesome chance to kind of relive, you know, I mean, over 12 years. And I think people forget, you know, over Clint's nine years in Pittsburgh, we were top 10 win in wins in baseball for, for almost a decade with the bottom two payroll. And so it's just awesome to kind of relive some of that. But I then know this well, hire a new president. They're going to do a GM search. Was not named interim. So I know I'm getting fired. I'm not named interim. I'm like, okay, this is. And. And my wife and I talked about it because she said, hey, they're just hoping that you kind of hold down the fort until new person comes in. And I think this is one of those things that I think, as leaders, we say all the time, hey, it's not about me. It's about your people. Whatever else, it's like, okay, do you really believe it? And I just felt like in that time that it was my job to. Because I wasn't the only one uncertain what was going on. There are a lot of people that were. And so it just felt like, hey, back to your point. Controllables. I can't control what's going to happen. I can't control how do I show up every day for. For my. For the people that I'm leading. I can't show up every day for, hey, as long as I'm here, I. I am stewarding this organization, and it's just sold out to navigating that. And, you know, I think I. I learned a lot about what we say matters versus actually having to live it out. And. And when you focus on those things, it's amazing, the different opportunities to impact people and all those things that show up as opposed to worrying, you know, about myself. [00:48:39] Speaker A: That's a karma thing, too. [00:48:40] Speaker B: 100%. [00:48:41] Speaker A: Handle it the right way. [00:48:43] Speaker B: And Clint Hurdle always says, you know, honor the exit. Like, there's people that came before me. There's going to be people come after me. It's not the Pittsburgh Kyle Starks. Like, this organization is bigger than me. I was entrusted with a seat for a period of time. My job is to steward that, that it's not about me, and then ultimately that somebody else is coming behind and, you know, to be able to look up and say, hey, did we leave it better than we found it? Are there lots of really good people? And it's awesome to see, you know, to see Pittsburgh rebounding and playing some good baseball right now with a lot of people that were there when we were there. [00:49:18] Speaker A: Do you have any tips for the hiring process for somebody, for hiring new employees or bringing. [00:49:24] Speaker B: Yeah, no. I love this question, and it's actually in honesty, probably the first question I got when. When I started, it wasn't consulting, but a guy reached out and said, hey, I need to hire a pitching coach. You know, I. I think we obsess over hiring when it comes to players, right? We obsess over recruiting, we obsess over scouting. But then when we start hiring coaches, we almost see it as like a Burden I have to do. And so I think the first tip is I have to understand that my job is that I, I'm. I have to always be looking for talent. And so because who I hire on my staff, way more important. Yes, ultimately we're going to be a product of the players that we bring in our program, but I have to get my hires right on my staff. I think a lot of times as coaches, we think, hey, assistant coach, you know, hey, you know what the job is. Hey, we just assume way too much and we think, hey, grown men, you're going to have. No, we're all human beings. We're all, we all need lead. And so when I see hiring as an. A huge opportunity as opposed to a burden, it just changes. So I'm always looking. Every coach I interact with is a potential. Hey, could be, could be, hey, do you know somebody? We're always building that. So that's number one. And then from there, I think we've got to make sure that we've, all parties involved are aligned in terms of what matters. We've got to make sure that we have pushed for clarity. What exactly am I looking for? It's amazing how many times I'll talk to a coach and they'll say, hey, I need to hire a pitching coach. I'm like, awesome. What are you looking for? Well, you know. No, I have no idea what you're looking for. What matters to you? Have you made sense? Do you have a coaching philosophy? Do you have a pitching fl. You know, what are you looking for? And so I've got to make sure I have clarity of what I'm looking for. Because if I, if I have clarity, I've got a better chance of finding it. And then I've got to make sure I've got a process that increases the chances of finding that. I think a lot of times, a lot of times I'll talk to somebody and they don't even know what they're really looking for. Just generally they're looking for a pitching coach. But even the ones who know, hey, I want a coach who does X, Y and Z, I'll say, great, how are you going to figure out who that is? And it's like, well, in an interview, bad place to figure that out. Well, I'm going to talk to a couple of guys I know that know them. Hey, that's good. Are there other data points? Are there other ways of doing this? In a perfect world? I always like that. If I'm bringing you in for an interview, then I'M good hiring you. I'm just trying to figure out which of these are the best, best fit. And then my time together in that interviewing process should be very much focused on. I think too often we spend time on philosophical, like, we just like to hear each other talk and say, well, I'm just about the players. Yeah, me too. I'm about the players. You know, I just think it's important to, you know, work fast, change speeds and throw strikes. Me too. As opposed to, hey, tell me about a. If we can ask more, tell me about times and I start to understand. How have you navigated situations? How would you navigate a situation? How have you navigated a kid that was resistant to what you had? How'd you navigate? You tell me about a kid that you didn't take the right process with. But I want to know the best predictor of future performance is past performance. So I want to know what behaviors, what experiences, what decisions have you made? How have you learned from them? Way more important than us having a philosophical discussion on pitching or whatever. [00:52:53] Speaker A: What are some of the other data points maybe that you would look at? [00:52:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I think a great one is looking at track record. It's amazing to me when we hire guys, look at the stats. Yeah, I mean, I'm like, so, so and so got hired as a pitching coordinator of a major league team. I'm like, dude, their college teams sucked on the mountain. What are we doing? Not. Not that that is the data point because there's always extenuating circumstances. But. But it would then lead to some questions because again, that just shows me that there's, hey, this guy's got good theory and. Or may talk good versus, no, he's a good coach. My experience is some of the best coaches I've ever been around would not be guys you, that you would bring on stage at ABCA main clinic are not guys that, you know, you'd bring in to talk to your organization, whatever else, but give them some players, they're going to get them better. And so I think looking at track performance, track records, a great one. I love looking at where have they been, who's shaped them, who's influenced them. It's amazing. You know, when people have been around good coaches and good programs, they end up being better coaches. And, you know, as you go through so looking at that, and then I think the other part is just talking to some other people that have been around that person in the journey, whether that's. And again, in a lot of ways, ideally it's someone above Someone at the same level and maybe somebody below. But to get this sense of ultimately, if I'm just talking to one guy, that's his perspective as opposed to, hey, we're starting to create some themes here as we talk to different people with some different data points with them. [00:54:26] Speaker A: When deal with either coaches or players, how do you deal with maybe their strengths and then blending what they need to work on? [00:54:33] Speaker B: Awesome question. This is one that Jamie and I have chopped up over. [00:54:37] Speaker A: Jamie and I talk about it a lot. [00:54:39] Speaker B: Yeah, because, because I think, you know, we'll go look at some waves. I think we'll say back in the day, I think it was fix your weaknesses, right? Like you got to fix your weaknesses. I mean more than anything it was like, dude, you just gotta, you, you go to, you know, you go out and punch 10, you walk one, but that one was in the seven. Like we're gonna talk about that one, you know, so fix our weaknesses then. As I think we've better understood development as we've potentially just swung the pendulum is whatever else we're like, hey, strengths based makes sense. And there's examples of this, right? Like Bobby Cox who just passed was legendary for like this guy. Scouts in the minor league, people tell me this guy does this well, okay, let's put him in a position to be successful. I think you look at some of the greatest managers ever, they're like, you know what? This guy can't do this, but he can do this. I'm going to leverage the heck out of that. I'm going to put him in a position to be successful. But then we swing the pendulum too far the other way, right? And it's all about your strengths. Just do your strengths. And now we've got a generation potentially of players that are very one dimensional and or when we get punched back, I don't know where to go or if I don't have that one thing, where do we go? So I think my answer to this is it's a both and right. And I think it does start from a strengths base. What does this person do? Well, we have to know that first and foremost we want to build an identity around what people do well. We want confidence to be rooted in what they do well. We want our usage to be rooted in what they do well. However, we got to make sure weaknesses don't limit them or put ceilings on them or whatever else. And so those are where we need to be working on those things. Because now if I have a player that can do three things well, we've increased our chances. Right. I think two other thoughts with this. I think if you just think about from a development perspective, working on our strengths is. Tend. Tends to be more energizing, motivating than just dwelling on our weaknesses. Right. Because we can see greater gains and whatever else. So I think we need to factor that in. However, if we avoid the other, then we're going to be limited. And so one of the things we would use in Pittsburgh from a feedback perspective, and I think it reinforces this is we gotta hunt the good stuff. What do we do? Well, that builds confidence. Like our strengths help us build confidence. But then we have to be honest about what can we get better at and be honest about those things that we need to move forward. Those build competence. Right. Those build. Those raise my floor, which is the longer you go, the more that you realize development is way more about raising floors than it is necessarily ceilings. Because it's more a matter of consistency at that point. [00:57:13] Speaker A: I think defense and base running for me the lowest hanging fruit right now. [00:57:17] Speaker B: 100. 100. And as a leader, you know, because [00:57:21] Speaker A: you can work on those and get better at those without, like, without taking away from anybody's strengths. They can get better at base running and defense without. Well, without burying them mentally. [00:57:32] Speaker B: 100. And what it also reinforces for us, it reinforces some other really important things. We talk about winning and development. Like dude, we talk all the time about winning games. That shows up in that we talk about team and getting in today's age where we're all selfish, not just players, we're all selfish. Well, how defensive base running is all about the team. Like it's all about. And so there's ways to reinforce the. The very values that we're talking about that the teams need to have. Defensive based running isn't as sexy. It isn't as you don't get paid whatever those things are. I know Jamie Carroll played 12 years in the big leagues, ended up making a lot of money because he sold out to those two things. And that. That's not just one example. But I've got a buddy who is an executive and he used. He and I used to always joke around about nobody cares about bunning until October. [00:58:26] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:58:27] Speaker B: Nobody cares about baserunning until October. Nobody cares about these things that show up. And this is why I think like college baseball is probably ahead of it because every game means. And so we've got to leverage these things. And I think that's where you see some of this focus on defensive based running. Probably a little Bit better. Not across the board, but in certain college programs because they know it increases their chances of winning. [00:58:48] Speaker A: Especially at the end of the year. [00:58:50] Speaker B: Especially at the end of the year. Yep. Yep. I think that's the thing. The challenge for baseball, especially pro ball, is that we play six months of the year one way and then we play a very different style of baseball for a month. And it's just. It's hard to reconcile those two things because I get it for six months. Would you rather, what's more bang for your buck, help this guy execute, develop, break on a breaking ball or hold runners? No comparison. But in October, we may lose a playoff game because of that. And so it's recognizing this tension as a coach that I need to be. This is why I got a coach with the end in mind. Right. I've got to be thinking about, am I preparing them for what's coming? Otherwise I can't look up and be mad because we didn't work on it. The game exposed it. [00:59:51] Speaker A: What has your experience been with the ABC convention? [00:59:55] Speaker B: You know, I love the ABCA convention, for me, does a couple things. Number one, I mean, where else are you going to get 6,000, 7,000 baseball coaches together? So inevitably, it becomes a great reunion, right? I mean, meet new people, seeing old faces, you know, guys that were like, hey, we need to connect. We need to connect. Hey, you can be at abca. Yes. You know, so I think that's number one. I think number two is generally there is an environment of curiosity and wanting to get better. There's certainly an element of people trying to show you what they know and everything else, but there is. And whether that's in the. In the main stage sessions or whether that's the clinics that you guys have continued to expand on the side, or whether it's just a group of dudes getting together in a suite to chop something up, which sometimes is the most magical of the conversations to this general spirit of curiosity. Trying to learn and get better, I think, is the other part of it. I think the third thing for me that, that it does for a lot of us. You know, if you're in a leadership position, you are constantly in a rat race of stuff. And the convention in some ways for me was always a time where, you know what? I'm going to go sit in the main stage and I'm just going to listen to six, eight hours of ball talk and not deal with all the other stuff. Now I'm going to have to deal with it later, but it allowed me even less than just what somebody might be teaching from the stage. It gave me time to think about some of these topics deeper and start to wrestle with some of these things and challenge some, some convictions and whatever else. So I think it's a great time to connect with people. It's a great time to be curious. I think it's also a great time for yourself to step back, get off the treadmill and think about, hey, where am I really with that? Not even so much, get some new drills because then we're just adding. I think it can be a great time to refine it and reduce as well. Nice. [01:01:45] Speaker A: You know, getting let go from the Pirates. Probably a fail forward moment. Do you have any other fail forward moments, something you thought was going to set you back but looking back now helped you move forward? [01:01:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I think, I think there's moments throughout, I think being told, hey, you're not going to be good enough to, to play at this level. So you got to pivot and figure something out. Which again opened up a career and in a front office, you know, I think so. When I went away to college, felt like I got a better opportunity to play volleyball than baseball. That didn't play out. Blew out my ankle, you know, so it's like, okay, you got to pivot, which again was another data point to push into this, this front office realm. You know, I think inevitably when you're in a leadership position, you try different things and some things work, some things don't. You know, we did two days of team development, leadership development in instructionally the one year with some Navy Seals got shredded, crucified in the industry and now like every organization's got a Navy SEAL working for them. So it's really cool. And for me it wasn't that we did it, but we were first through the door, which I wore some things for it, but I think for me it was more how I rolled that out and, or how I managed up. I could have managed up way better. You know, I think a lot of times I fell into a trap of, well, if I just deliver well, it doesn't matter. So, you know, you still got to manage up. You still got to put your boss in a good position to be successful, successful. You still need to be able, you got to follow well. So there were some, you know, fail forward moments with that along the way. I think the other one for me is parenting. In all honesty, I think, you know, you talk about coaching like I, it's hard to coach if you haven't parented. Like they're just every day they're reminding you of where you've not done a good job and you know, trying to figure that out, where there is definitely wisdom and guidance from other people and there's lots of books that have studied it. But like this, you talk about art and science, there's way more art. And so I think that, you know, parenting along the way certainly does that. I'll give you a quick story on that. My first year in Pittsburgh. I think it was my first year in Pittsburgh. I just felt like I needed to be everywhere. And so I was on the road a ton and I'd been out, was going to be out for like another week or something. I'm like, you know what? I can get home for 24 hours and see the family. I'm going to be a good father and husband. Well, I reroute, get home for 24 hours and spend the day. And our youngest at the time was 2. Yeah, 2. And the next morning I'm getting up, I'm going to the airport and he comes out and he says, hey, can I go in the office with you? I said, actually, buddy, I'm leaving town. Two year old melts down crying. I'm like, I'm the worst father ever. But it was reminding me again in terms of just hey, when we think we're doing good versus are we actually doing good and how do we navigate some of those things? Things? I think parenting's some great fail forward moments. [01:04:39] Speaker A: How do you navigate that grind though? As a parent in professional baseball? I've got guys that are coaching right now that have young kids in it and they are, they're dealing with it right now, like struggle. Some of them haven't seen their family [01:04:52] Speaker B: since January, no question. And what I would say to, to coaches and leaders in this, number one, you've got to see it as a calling. And it can't just be a job. If it's a job, even if it's a career, it's not work. You can't make sense of it. And not just you, but your wife and kids have to see it as a calling. You know, there's some things in my family we missed out on. There's some really cool moments our family got a chance to experience because of the world that, that we have lived. I think the other part of it is for those of us who are definitely in leadership positions, a head coach, whatever else, it's for us to be honest with ourselves, there's always something else you can do it. So we got to Let go of that and say, at the end of the day, I need to find not, not this idea of balance. Because I think balance, we start to think about, like, the scales of justice. That's not real. But I do want to be in alignment with my values. And so are there times where I can push to say, you know what? Hey, nobody in the office until whatever time. Hey, bring the family, bring the families to the ballpark at the end of prag. Hey, but to fight for that time in alignment with my values, not for balance. I don't think any the, the good marriages I've seen, I don't think the wives are expecting balance. I think they are expecting the husband to not just say, hey, you're on the back burner until. Because here's the other part of it too. Okay. You're on the back burner until June, July. Well, recruiting well before we know it, fall boss. And it's like you're always on the back burner. So it's the ability again, coming back to what we were talking about before, get rid of stuff that doesn't matter as much. There's always something I can be doing. I need to be at peace with that and then ultimately say, I want to be in alignment with my values, which means my family's got to be a part of this and I got to fight for that. [01:06:51] Speaker A: Yeah. I spoke to a college class the other day, and one of the first questions was work life. Work life, balance. I said, it's not a thing. [01:06:58] Speaker B: That's what I said. [01:06:59] Speaker A: Hey, that is not a thing. Like, if you want to be in this, any sort of athletic industry, that is not a thing. Maybe when you're older. I said, but, but then Jimmy Onati is a good friend. He was on the call too. He said, it's just life. Like, it's not. It's not work life, balance. It's just life. There's always going to be things at certain times that are out of whack, of something else. That's just life. It's not a work life balance. That's just life. [01:07:23] Speaker B: I had early in my time, I had a mentor say to me because he challenged me because it was stupid hours and I. And I probably was out of whack. And he challenged me and he said, you know, he mentioned balance. I said, you know, I've never been around somebody elite who's balanced. I'm just going to tell you. [01:07:37] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's not a thing. They are wired for it in the best possible way. Wired for. [01:07:43] Speaker B: Yep. Usually if you end up in these positions, you probably have a higher capacity. You probably rhythm differently. You probably are. And so how am I leveraging those things? I think it's just a matter of if I'm going to be a father and a husband, I need to commit to those responsibilities. And that means I got to fight, fight for things that I may have to be creative. I may need to give in a certain spot. I've told people before, there's no question in my mind I could say that being a father and a husband made me a worse leader because I couldn't dedicate as much time and energy at the same time. I've told people there's no doubt in my mind I'm a better leader because I was a father and a husband, because I just understood people. I understand. I understood relationships, I understood people, I understood. I understood love way better there than I ever was going to understand if I was just coaching and leading. [01:08:33] Speaker A: When did the light bulb go on? Or who nudged you to get the Navy SEALs involved? [01:08:37] Speaker B: So part of this was when we got hired in Pittsburgh, we just knew we were going to have to do it different. And so we. There's a sports psychologist, Dr. Cook wrote Seven Days in the Links to Utopia. Really good. Somebody that's looking for a sports psychology book. Really good book. He talks in there about truth over tradition, that tradition can be a vision killer. And so we said, hey, we're going to pursue truth doesn't mean we're going to shun tradition. Like, there's re. There's certain things that have been done a certain way for 100 years for a reason. Let's not try to reinvent the wheel, but let's make sure we're constantly pursuing truth. And so as we settled into this, we said, again, come back to people are people. Excellence is excellence. Well, let's look at who's doing good things in good spaces. So some of that was in baseball, Some of that was other sports. Like, I think there's a lot. I had a conversation with a Hall of Fame football coach who said, you know what? I think baseball should coach a little bit more like football, and football should probably coach a little bit more like baseball, balancing that urgency and patience piece. So we started looking at other sports. We started looking at education. We started looking at corporate space and companies that are just legendary, they're just killing it, have built great cultures. And we looked at the military. We looked at, you know, in my mind, if you're the best in the world at something, I want to know what you're doing. And then we decide what works for us, what doesn't. If I'm just copying you, then that's not good leadership. But if I say, hey, they do this really well, okay, what would that look like for us? It made a lot of sense. So out of that we were. Whenever I was on the road somewhere, which is all the time is I'd look at somebody up in an area and I go spend time, some time with them. After a few years of doing that, I'm like, you know what? We should bring people to us. I mean, we're a major league baseball organization. And so we started doing these think tanks each year where we'd bring in 30 to 50 highspeed leaders and performers from all those different worlds. And then we would spend two days chopping these things up. And so we had a group from NSW came out and they loved it. Then they came out every year we did one, they'd send a contingent when we'd be out there, they'd want to. It became a best practices sharing of ideas. And I was always intrigued by their ability to build team, build team and develop leaders. And so I'm like, okay, let's. So we, we had a couple guys, some retired and some active guys that came out and spent two days. Great. I mean it was just awesome to see some of the things we thought play out in real time and watch some of these guys emerge, some of these guys not emerge. Some guys, quite a few guys are still playing in the big leagues. And it was a great two days of giving our players a taste of something different. So it wasn't just us talking about them. A little bit of a confidence builder to say, hey dude, we just trained with some Navy Seals and for us to, for our coaches to continue to see some best practices in a different environment, to say, okay, hey, I can take that. Hey, I saw how he interacted with that, that young man. So it became a great learning experience for all of us. [01:11:41] Speaker A: How'd you fill the void with your time when you got out of professional baseball? Because I can't imagine the hours or anything close to what you were doing. [01:11:48] Speaker B: No, it is not. Part of it is I'm still on the road a decent amount because most of the work I'm doing is going to, I, I know zoom and everything else. We, we can shrink it. I just, I prefer to spend time with people. So I'm still on the road a decent amount, but not near as much. And the hours are way different. And, and so I Filled them in with two things. One, probably spent a little bit more time on me than I used to. I always felt like, hey, if my people deserve my best, so I need to make sure I'm taking care of me. But there's a difference between that level and no, I've got some time to maybe explore this or maybe learn this or whatever. The second one, and it's a huge one for me, has been my family. I've just been able to do more things with my family. And the cool thing now is the flexibility is like, I was just in Dallas working with a group and was able to see our oldest son. And then we went to South Carolina and worked with a college football program and was able to see our youngest son. So we've been able to. To do more of that together, my wife and I. [01:12:56] Speaker A: What have been some new skills you've picked up? [01:12:59] Speaker B: I think for me, it's. It's. I'll give you a specific skill then a general approach. I think the specific skill was that I did a. A coaching. An executive coaching course specifically aimed at growing. Not the skill of coaching the way we're talking, but the. The art of. Of coaching. And it was really good for me as a guy who's more of a type A personality. Tell him let's go. As opposed to, hey, ask some good questions. I think we can overplay that as well. I see it in organizations where it's like, dude, just tell them the answer. We don't need to keep this asking questions. But it has helped me be more patient as I've helped a leader work through something as opposed to just, hey, I'm going to fix this problem for you. And then generally for me has been just doing some things where I'm not. Don't feel like I'm in control. Because I think as leaders, we forget that. We forget what that feels like. I think as coaches, we forget what that feels like. And so whether that's, you know, getting my motorcycle license. My oldest rides motorcycle. Just, you know, to go do something that. Did scuba with my youngest. Just to do something that, hey, whether I really want to or not, it's going to get me out of my comfort zone and get me out of where I'm in control and force me to remember what that feels like. Nice. [01:14:18] Speaker A: What are some final thoughts or something I should ask you that? I didn't. [01:14:21] Speaker B: Yeah. You've been awesome. Right. I think that we've covered a lot of things. I think the big thing that I would want to encourage coaches is Is in this landscape, I think coaching has never been more needed. I think the bar has never been higher. The recipe has not changed. You know, I think the things we'd identify as great coaches that have impacted us from a generation ago, those still would be great coaches. So the recipe hasn't changed. And I think more than ever, we have to evaluate is, are we controlling controllables or uncontrollables controlling us? I just think it's really easy for us to look up and say, the landscape's controlling us, society's controlling us. And even in pro ball as well, where it's like this, you know, our career path is like, well, you know, as soon as we start saying they say this matters, I think we just need to challenge ourselves and say, do I agree with that or not? And am I leading from a place that ultimately is in alignment with my values? What matters to me doesn't mean. Because I think a lot of times we can fall in this trap where we've got to get out or we got to be somebody different. No, I think you can still be a really good coach in this landscape, but we've got to be that much more intentional about working from the inside out as opposed to the outside in, because margins for are going to be exposed. Lack of resource, whatever it is, demands on our times are going to be exposed. Those things are all threats. And I've got to be that much better at really leading myself so I can go lead others. [01:15:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Extreme ownership. [01:15:59] Speaker B: Yep. Yep. [01:16:01] Speaker A: Goes in anti fragile. [01:16:03] Speaker B: Yep. Very much so. [01:16:04] Speaker A: Yep. All right, sir, thank you so much for your time. So excited about this. Appreciate you. [01:16:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I enjoyed talking it up. [01:16:11] Speaker A: People that I respect in the game of baseball have the utmost respect and admiration for Kyle. It's a pleasure to sit down with him and break down leadership. He'll be joining us in Chicago on our leadership hot Stove panel. I look forward to what he will bring to the table for the 2027 Chicago convention. Thanks again to John Litchfield, Zach Hale and Matt west in the ABCA office for all the help on the podcast. Feel free to reach out to me via email r brownleeabca.org Twitter, Instagram or TikTok coachbabca or direct message me via the MyABCA app. This is Ryan Brownlee signing off with the American Baseball Coaches Association. Thanks and leave it better for those behind you. [01:16:53] Speaker B: Keeps on turning and your life is not for turning and you know that way Yep. [01:17:04] Speaker A: Wait for another day [01:17:09] Speaker B: and the world will always return as your life I was never for your name and you know that way wait for another [01:17:29] Speaker A: day.