Clint Hurdle - Hitting & Bench Coach, Colorado Rockies

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the ABCA's podcast. I'm your host, Ryan Brownlee. Recruiting is time consuming, but what if you could filter through the noise and find the right players in minutes for free with ProLook athletes, create detailed profiles with verified stats, academics and highlight videos so you can search for exactly what you need and connect with top talent instantly. And it's free for College coaches. Download ProLook today to start searching for your next recruit, among many other coaches features available for both Apple and Android devices. For more info, visit www.prolook.app. this episode is sponsored by Netting Pros. Netting Professionals are improving programs one facility at a time. Netting Professionals specializes in the design, fabrication and installation of custom netting for backstops, batting cages, dugouts, BP screens and ball carts. They also design and install digital graphic wall padding, windscreen turf, turf protectors, dugout benches, dugout cubbies and more. Netting Professionals is an official partner of the ABCA and continues to provide quality products and services to many high school, college and professional fields, facilities and stadiums throughout the country. Netting Professionals are improving programs one facility at a time. Contact them today at 844-620-2707 or infoettingpros.com visit them online at www.nettingpros.com or check out Netting Pros on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn for all their latest products and projects. Make sure to let CEO Will Minor know that the ABCA sent you. Now on to the podcast. Exciting week for the ABCA Podcast. Getting an opportunity to sit down with Colorado Rockies hitting and bench coach Clint Hurdle. Hurdle has spent a lifetime in the game professionally as a player, coach and manager since 1977. Hurdle spent 17 seasons as an MLB manager with the Rockies and pirates, amassing almost 1300 wins. Hurdle gave a phenomenal talk at the ABCA Convention national harbor this year. Be well worth your time to go back and watch his presentation. This episode is about as good as it gets from a Flow State conversation. I want to thank Clint for his willingness to share his journey and for also being a bright light in the social media space. Let's welcome Clint Hurdle the Podcast. [00:02:50] Speaker B: Here. [00:02:50] Speaker A: With Clint Hurdle Bench Coach Hitting coach for the Colorado Rockies, but 17 seasons as a manager of the Rockies and the Pirates with over a thousand wins, but been in professional baseball as a player and coach since 1977. Did I get all that right? [00:03:06] Speaker B: Wow. I sure think so. That's a lot. [00:03:09] Speaker A: And I do know you, but I feel like with with prepping for this. I feel like I know you a lot better now. Which which is great. [00:03:18] Speaker B: Well, you know, one of the fun. One fun things we do get to, I think, lean into in life and in sport is building a relationship and not just saying hi and then passing somebody by to actually say hi and how you doing? And actually listen to them. So I'm looking forward to this, Ryan. Thank you. [00:03:40] Speaker A: I mean, how much has changed for you since you spoke at the convention? [00:03:44] Speaker B: Well, I. You know, I just written my book, and I was on a book tour. I started to promote the book, actually. I was going to signings. I had opportunities to speak. I had a summer plan of activity and also some family activities with my wife, my daughter, my son. And I had the entire summer booked. And then all of a sudden, and I think it was the 14th of April, I had an interesting phone call from the president, the owner, and our general manager with the Rock. He's asked me to get back in uniform initially as a hitting coach and after some reflection and some phone calls to not just my wife, but some people I hold close to my heart that have been able to, I think, guide me, have challenging conversation with me as I've gotten older. I call it my Mount Rushmore group. You know, I came to the point where I said, if there's people you love in your life that need your help, you know, you have some options. You either tell them where they can look, who they can call, or you can just say, you know what, I'm coming. So I chose to run to the storm like the buffalo, not like the cattle that run away from the storm. I chose to run to the storm and everything flipped because I had to either re. I had obviously reestablished a lot of speaking engagements. I still made a couple that I committed to a long time. So I had a couple personal days I've taken since I took on the position. But then we just rearranged my schedule to a lot of speaking engagements and book signings will happen now after the season. Some family commitments and vacations will happen after the season. But I'm all in. My days are full, my hands are full, and I'm doing everything I can to just help an organization that's fighting scratch and clawing their way back to. To some respectable winning sustainability, which we haven't gotten there yet. [00:05:50] Speaker A: Where do you start with those guys now? I mean, obviously you're around them a little bit, probably in spring training, but where do you start with the players that you're now having to work with? [00:06:00] Speaker B: Well, I've been fortunate that I built some relationships the last four years and Working in our minor league system, I was a special assistant or general manager two weeks a month. I would go on the road. I would spend a week with each affiliate. You know, the minor league schedules now are, you're home for a week, you start Tuesday, you play through Sunday. So I would go to the affiliates, whether it was Fresno, Spokane, Hartford or Albuquerque, spend those six games with them. And if you spend six days with a team, you get a pretty good look. You should see all the pitching. You should see everybody on the field at some point in time. And I would try and just be a guide on the side for either the young managers and coaches. I say young because just about everybody out there is younger than me right now, the younger players. And, you know, I try and use my eyes and ears when I walk in the door. I don't try and come in with a lot of information. I want to hear them, I want to see him, I want to feel them. The vibe in the clubhouse, the vibe on the field. I don't do the dugout. I watch the games from behind home plate. I show up in khakis and Hawaiian shirt to try and lessen the blow of the transition of somebody from the front office coming in. And that was what I did. So I had relationships built. Once I came in, my first phone call after they asked me to consider the position was to Buddy Black was then managing the team. Because I know what it's like to be a manager in a hard spot. You know, I've done it in Colorado, I did in Pittsburgh, and I wanted to make sure Buddy was good with me coming in. He said, clint, we need some help. I'd appreciate if you would come in. So I came in and I told everybody I was there to be Buddy's bench coach, not to take Buddy's job, not to try and dig a tunnel. I was there to help the organization. I had a hard time. So I had that position for a month. On Mother's Day, the 11th of, I think, May, we made another change and Buddy was let go, and Warren Shaffer was named interim manager. And then Bill Schmidt came to me and asked me if I would consider being the bench coach. And I shared my thoughts. First, I asked why, and he told me why. I said, so what were your plans with a hitting? Because we had established some traction, trying to do some things, maybe not so much do everything differently, because too many times people get fired and somebody comes in and says, well, we're going to do this, this, this and this. Well, you know what that person was probably trying to do a lot of good things. Whether it's a manager, a pitching coach or hitting coach, anytime somebody's fired, nobody shows up to work, say, hey, let me see how I can screw this up today. Let me see how I can make this go really bad. So I needed to honor Hensley first, then honor Buddy, because I've been in those seats, I've been the guy that's been fired. And then to be the bench coach for Warren and a young interim manager. Also to oversee the hitting, we brought up two of our minor league hitting coaches, our hitting coordinator, Nick Wilson, our hitting coach, AAA Jordan Pacheco, to oversee that program because we had established some traction in doing some things from a hybrid mentality. Not just all analytics, not just old school eye test stuff, but we've combined the two and then also kind of be a chief of staff. This is what Greg Fiesel, the team president of Time, wanted me to do. This was try and help some of these younger coaches transition through a very tumultuous year. It's establishing relationships, it's listening to people, it's using your eyes and ears. That's probably a way too long of an answer for your question. [00:09:33] Speaker A: When you say hybrid, what is the blending of kind of the old school, new school. And like you said it during your talk, like it's old school, new school, it's in school. So what is kind of the blinding of those two things? [00:09:45] Speaker B: Well, I think first of all you gotta. What we've done is reach out to our players and ask them what they feel is important in them growing as a hitter, not just developing their swing. Because for me, still today in the game of baseball, there's too much emphasis on the swing and not as much emphasis as we should have on hitting. Big difference. You know, you practice the swing in a small space. We've actually gone through some tough times where we're doing way too much swinging. We need to learn sometimes how to better to not swing. We get in a hurry to swing. When you talk about hitting, you're talking about maturity, you're talking about box presence, you're talking about controlling a strike zone, having an idea of the situation. Not every swing do you need to get off a maximum swing that's got the potential to move a baseball 110 miles an hour. You know, your, your exit velocity, there's sometimes a ball off the end of the bat over the second baseman's head, could score two runs. Pitching has never probably been more dynamic and hitting has probably never been more Challenged. That being said, we don't need to overcook it. I do think we can hold on to some staples. The first one is get a good pitch to hit. Because one of the challenges we have right here is chase. You know, I think every hitting coach, every program in their hitting philosophy talks about their chase rates. We do chase too much, and I think sometimes it's because we're in a hurry to hit. We're not actually getting back, seeing the ball. So the numbers are important on what the pitches are doing or what you're seeing from the pitch. The velocity, the spin, the shaping. Also support what you want to hit, knowing where you're good, knowing where you're challenged. So I think there's some old school, new school mix hybrid. Like I said we can do at the end of the day, get a good pitch to hit, be on time. Because I've never had a hitter to this day, 50 years of the game, and I've been a hitter. But I said, hey, coach, you know what? I'm struggling right now. I'm just too early. I'm just. My foot's down too early. I got way too much time to hit. Have not had that conversation yet. I hear a lot. I'm late. I'm in a hurry. I feel pressured. I don't have space. So get a good pitch to hit, be on time. The third one, this is maybe the most important. Don't freak out if the first two don't happen. On that pitch, you get three strikes, you can get a whole bunch of pitches, and it's the ability to flush a bad pitch or a bad swing and then regroup and get back in the box and compete. [00:12:21] Speaker A: It's the art of hitting versus the science of the swing is the two things. Because there's an art to good hitters like they are. There's an art to it. [00:12:30] Speaker B: Think about it. How much do we use that term anymore, the art of pitching or the art of hitting? We don't. You know, it's become very dynamic. And I do understand because I'll say, talking to hitters now, you know the terms they use versus the terms I used even five years ago, managing the Pirates, and with David Eckstein, our hitting coach, and many of the other hitting coaches I've had over the years, the terminology has changed. So you've got to be current, you've got to catch up and speak their language to some degree. And I think if you will sit down and develop that relationship, you can teach them your language a little bit. We Had Josh Hamilton come in the other day, the ALMVP 2010 who I was the heading coach for in Texas. He shared some thoughts. Todd Hilton has worked with our hitters. Vinny Castilla has worked with our hitters. I believe in diversity of thought and of speech that different people that have had success come in and share. But I do think we have over calibrated in some areas that it's become all about the swing and we've lost the idea of once the game starts it's about competition. [00:13:40] Speaker A: I think Judge is a good example over his career. He's almost like Barry Bonds now where he's hitting in a small window. Like where in the past it was one out every three at bats he was going to K where now it just seems like he's hitting in a much smaller window which I think Bonds was, was as good as we've ever had of hitting in a smaller window. So when he gets his pitch he's not going to miss it or he's not expanding as much. I think Judge has started to figure a lot lot of things out. [00:14:07] Speaker B: I think the beauty of what you just said, I don't know Aaron Judge, I did get to watch him up close and personal. Three games in Coors Field, he had a ball to right center field. Early in one game where the ball landed, it looked like, well okay, that's a left hand, Bonds hit that ball. That's a left handed power hitter that hit that ball to right center. No, it's a right handed hitter that let a ball travel, that got a good swing off, that made four, that flushed the ball. Term I like to use, he flushed it, he caught it. Sweet, sweet spot, sweet spot of the sweet sweet part of the bat. Excuse me, sweet part of the ball. And the ball traveled incredible distance. I do think he's learned over time from the swing he brought to the big leagues to the swing he has now. And I think there's probably a little different thinking that's gone on once he gets in a box from a few years ago to what's going on now. Because the combination of power and average and on base and ops, it's all come to fruition where he is the most dynamic hitter that I've seen since Bonds. The one thing about Bonds, it was amazing to me and from a hitting standpoint I never saw Bonds leave his backside in an attempt to hit a baseball. And I can tell you plenty of times I look like I was walking a dog. Sometimes I left my backside so far I come off my Front foot, barrels out front, the barrels out outside the batter's box. You know, I've lost my balance, a lot of momentum forward. I've never saw Barry Bonds come off his backside. And I don't think now in any of the video I watch prepping for the Yankee series or even catching videos, still looking at hitters hit. Do I see Aaron Judge come off his backside very often? I do think that's one of the staples to being a lead hitter, is to be able to hold your backside, get your swing off out front. [00:15:58] Speaker A: You go watch the old school guys, though, the old videos, they're all over the map with. With their swing mechanics. I mean, look at Clemente, you know, Hank Aaron just. Guys were more trying to get off their backside to get to their front side. It just was a different. It was a different type of swing. Now, the positions were the same where they got to in good hidden position and some of that stuff. But the after effect of it. Frank Thomas. There's a lot of. A lot of getting off the backside and the back foot's almost two feet off the ground. [00:16:30] Speaker B: It can be. You're talking about every hitter you mentioned is in the hall of Fame. Yes. For every hitter that's in the hall of Fame, there's a whole bunch of hitters that aren't in the hall of Fame. And that's one of the challenges we have. And teaching proper technique or what works for somebody, that's one of the things I share with all our hitters. Here's what I'm suggesting. But you may be able to do it different. And thank God nobody told Clemente. Craig Counsel I had coming up as the hitting instructor in the Rockies organization. And there was one time I think I wanted to ask. I believe I asked Craig, I said, did you just get a couple six packs of beer and go out in the backyard with a wiffle ball and come up, you know, with his stance, because it had a little Yastremski in. Didn't have Stargill with the windmill, but as far as the high hands and the finish. And he goes, no, it's just what felt comfortable for me. And, you know, sometimes I think hitters will see themselves and go, wow, okay, that's a little weird. But they don't feel weird. They feel comfortable, they feel dangerous, they feel confident, which are all important. And I do think the one thing we should never do is tell somebody they can't do something before they've shown you they're unable to do it in the way in which they want to do it or they feel best suited to do it. [00:17:43] Speaker A: In pro baseball, what percentage of jobs do you get is because somebody got let go? [00:17:49] Speaker B: Oh, shoot, I don't know the percent, but I got this job back in the baseball. Now somebody, like, got let go. I probably got my first managerial job because somebody decided not to come back or got let go. So it happens a lot. It's same way as a player. You know, we've had some tough decisions to make here this year, but one of the most impactful decisions you can make as an organization is when you tell the player, coach or manager that, you know what, it's time to pack your bag and walk out of that big league clubhouse because you're not good enough right now. I've been fired three times. I've been released as a player, I've been traded as a player. But every time that I was maybe removed from a situation or asked to leave a situation, I was fortunate that another opportunity opened up. So your perspective is what matters most when you. When you've got to deal with, I think, some adversity as a hitter. And right now we got some hitters going through some challenges because the way they did it for, you know, in college or the way they did it in the Meyer leagues may not be working at the same level of success they had done. It may be time to make an adjustment. [00:19:06] Speaker A: How do you handle the pressure of keeping your job? [00:19:09] Speaker B: I never even considered keeping my job. Doing my job is more important. And I think a lot of, you know, I think a lot of young coaches probably experienced that. I know I did initially, and I was fortunate. And I was fortunate that I was blessed along the way with some really good mentors. Don Baylor took care of me as a major league manager. My first major league manager gave me my first opportunity. And I can remember sitting in an office one time with him. We're talking about a lineup, and we were going through a hard time, and somebody came in and said, hey, groove. You know, somebody. Somebody said something about, well, Don Miller's on the hot seat. He said, the only time my seat's been hot, he said, is when I've let it be hot. He's in my job. My. My focus is to do my job, not worry about my job. I'll never forget those worlds. But whereas Bobby Cox told me the same thing, Joe Tory had shared the same idea with me as a young manager. So. And right now, I mean, I'm probably the best place I've ever been about not being concerned about losing job you know, they came to me to come back and help. We'll see where this lands at the end of the season. Maybe, you know, there's. There's space for me to move forward with it. Maybe at the end, I'm just saying, you know what, that was too much. Maybe they said, no, Clint, you did really good, or, we appreciate your help, we don't want you back. I don't know where this is going to land, but I'm not concerned about where it's going to land. My focus is to show up today in Boston, wherever I'm at, do the best job I can do in helping our manager, the other coaches, and our players. That's going to keep my day full. [00:20:45] Speaker A: Do you feel like the players get into that, too? They get into a bad head space because they are focusing on things that are out of their control. I think coaches and players go through it with baseball. That's the way baseball works. I think they. They get in a bad headspace because they're worry about things they can't control. [00:21:00] Speaker B: I think you're 100% correct. And we do that in life. You know, one of the things, as I've shared very transparently, you know, I'm a recovering alcoholic. I got 26 years of sobriety. One of the best lessons I learned early in AA is I can't control what other people say, think or do. It was hard because I spent a lot of my life trying to control what you thought about me, Ryan, what Joe thought about me down the street, what the papers are writing about me or what they're saying. And then I would also maybe try and leverage your day into making my day easier. We get distracted, and I think there's probably never been more distractions for players in today's game than there was when I played. Social media is a huge distraction. I use it now. I'm on it. I also have limits to the time I'm on it. My son shared with me early on that, dad, this is a great opportunity to share positivity, to share wisdom and strength. It's also a crap shoot on something. It's like the wild, wild West. If you want to get in a fist fight, all you do is pick up your phone. You can get to a fist fight on your phone. Players also have, you know, some of them have posses where there's a lot of people giving them a lot of information as they go along. And I always share with my players. Be careful of who you're listening to because one of the reasons you know you're not playing is not because the manager doesn't like you. Maybe he's not playing very well right now. And maybe you got your buddy telling you, well, you're not hitting because he's got you hit seven and he doesn't know what he's doing. Well, if you hit better, you'll move up. Because I've never known a manager to not move a player up in the lineup if they really start performing well. So it does depend on who they have in their inner circle and who's a truth teller speaking truth to them versus somebody just sharing noise and trying to enable them through a hard situation. [00:22:55] Speaker A: Do you feel like you'd get a managerial job if you hadn't picked up catching at 28 years old? [00:23:01] Speaker B: 1 of the best questions I've ever been asked, because I don't. You know what? One of the things that opened me up to that was getting behind the plate and watching the game. I had never had that view before. Davey Johnson had wisdom in a lot of different areas. Number one, he allowed me to play third base because truthfully, it wasn't his idea either. In the minor leagues opening day, our starting third baseman, Mike Bishop, got hit in the back of a hand. Broke his hand. I was dhing for a National League club. I just got released in Seattle a few days earlier from a big league club. Caught a job in Triple A as the DH for a National League team. And Davey looked down the dugout, there's like four extra men. He says, can anybody play third? I raised my hand. So he said, okay, you're gonna go in. I'll put the picture in your spot. We'll figure this out, whatever. So I played third that day, and Davey didn't know, but I'd never played third base one pitch in my life. And after that game and one more game, he called me in his office early the next day and said, you've never played third base in your life, have you? I go, no, I've got no clue what I'm doing. Over he goes, then why did you raise your hand? I said, dave, your question was, can anybody play? Can anybody play third? As it. Can anybody play third base? I don't know if I could or not, but I was raising my hand because I didn't want to Dh. I ended up playing 130. I played every game of that minor league season, and I want to say about 125 of them were at third base for Davey Johnson that year. He worked with me. He helped me. That was a Big part of me also developing, maybe as a coach. But the catching thing, there was no doubt building relationships with your pitchers, watching swing patterns from other hitters, making every guy feel like he's the baddest dude on the mound when he comes in and pitches the game. All of it gave me a look that I'd never had before in all the years of baseball. [00:24:55] Speaker A: How much has that relationship changed over the years, the catcher pitcher relationship, if any? [00:25:01] Speaker B: You know, I don't think it's changed much. You. You don't have as much in game, opportunity to chat. I mean, one of the best ever was Yadi or Molina. That was like having a pitching coach go to the mound, and he would go to the mound. Gotti made a lot of trips to the mountain. But I was fortunate in Pittsburgh that I had two different times, had Russell Martin and Francisco Savelli catching for us. And they were experts at making that pitcher not just be responsible, but accountable, aggressive, talk them through some hard situations. He could hold their hand, he could smack him on the backside, he could grab by the neck. And I still see that today. We've had a couple older veteran catchers do some really good work with us in Colorado over the years. Jacob Stallings, a kid I had in Pittsburgh, he was here with us earlier this season. But then to watch a young catcher mature and grow like a Hunter Goodman has, who basically had never caught more than 40 games at any minor league level, and now he's caught almost 50 at the major league level, and he made the all star team as the backup catcher. To watch him grow, I do think catching, for me, it became. It was also the first time that my offense wasn't probably the most important thing that I felt I was needed to do in uniform, because a catcher, you got way more responsibilities than you do with any other position that's on the field. [00:26:26] Speaker A: Is there still healthy confrontation? [00:26:31] Speaker B: There is. [00:26:33] Speaker A: I think that's where social media has caused problems. I don't. Yeah, I think we've lost that. Where you can have some healthy confrontation. You're not mortal enemies because you don't agree on things. And I wanted to ask, because I'm not in a big league dugout, and so I just. Is there still healthy confrontation where. Where you're talking it out, it might get heated, but then you kind of go your ways. You're still buddies or teammates after that. Is there still healthy confrontation? [00:27:00] Speaker B: I think there is, and I think there's more on the better teams because they're comfortable doing it. And teams that are in Hard places and lose a lot. You know, if you make a comment, it's almost like fists up first rather than open hands. You know, confrontation, as you just said, can be, can be hard, but it also can be so beneficial because you're exchanging beliefs and you're trying to find some common ground. And it doesn't mean that, you know, you're anybody's right at all costs. Here's my view. Okay, there's your view. What can we. Let's first look what we agree on versus what we disagree on. So I've seen it a couple times in our dugout since I've been here. I believe I've seen it in other dugouts watching the game across the way. But I know for a fact and the good teams I played on, it was just something that happened because we were involved and we were engaged and we cared about one another. And sometimes it was the confrontation. Hey, run the ball out, man. The manager didn't have to tell us to run the ball out. You know, a teammate told us to run the ball out, get down the line. A teammate showed, hey, we don't do things like that here. Has much more value than a coach or a manager having to pull you aside and give you that type of information. [00:28:18] Speaker A: I view it as a form of love. [00:28:21] Speaker B: I agree with you 100%. Tough love is still love. My friend John Gordon talks about loving tough. I both are necessary and look at what you know. I look back at my days growing up, my dad loved me, my dad still loves me. He's 91. But there was days when it was hard love because that's what I needed. I didn't need my hand to be held. I didn't need a pat on the back. I need to be. I need to be taken. Sit down. Told the truth and what was expected. And I think that's still applicable today. [00:28:53] Speaker A: You mentioned the six day minor league schedule. Do you feel like the changes of the minor leagues have been good for baseball? [00:28:59] Speaker B: I think all of them have been good. I mean, taking some of the financial responsibilities off these guys, they're getting paid, they're getting housing, they're getting food. It's taking a lot of distractions off the table for them where they can show up and just try and be the best teammate, they can be the best ball player, they can be the best asset to an organization. Because truly in the minor league, your liability, because everything you do costs to make, you know, cost the organization money. Gotta pay for rent now. You pay your salary, you pay your food at the clubhouse, we don't get any return on that ROI on that investment until you get to the big leagues. But I think being able to walk through it and actually see it and to see now also. I just watched the renovation of our ball club in Spokane. The playing surface, the dining room, the small dining room, the cages. I watch it all undergo and I tip my hat to that organization. Bobby Brett, the owner, the other people that work there in that building. It is a beautiful A ball facility. We have a beautiful facility in Fresno. It used to be a triple A facility. Hartford is a beautiful place to play now for kids. And Albuquerque, although it's old, it's renovated in a lot of different areas. So I don't think. I think this is the most vibrant period of minor league baseball that I've ever seen. And it's healthy and it's good for fans and it's good for the players. [00:30:23] Speaker A: You feel like that's why guys are more athletic now too. [00:30:28] Speaker B: I. Well, I think we're more. More athletic just because it's been generational. They train in smaller spaces. Players have. They're stronger, they move quicker, they're not faster because you don't see stolen bases like you used to see based on speed. But there's more velocity, there's more spin, there's more practice in short spaces. I don't think there's any doubt that the overall talent could be higher collectively. However, baseball IQ is not where it used to be. You know, team cohesion is something that usually has to be re visited in a minor because you're gonna be on one team for 150 days. That doesn't happen. You know, college programs, they'll stretch it out, they'll play a lot of games. A lot of these kids that are coming out of high school in a pro ball have only played maybe 40 games with one team. And then they're on this travel team and that travel team. And so the players, they're definitely physically stronger because they've chosen to be, and it's proved to, to help them in some areas. But as far as being able to play the game of baseball, I think that's where you're seeing the separation. I got to witness Altuve playing baseball again the other day when the Astros were in. I mean, he is the poster child for a guy that's five, eight, that plays six, eight, that swings not perfectly. You know, it doesn't look right some of the. But he's a baseball player, and I love to still be able to use that term when I look across the field and I see somebody that just has been gifted or worked hard at being a baseball player. Not a physical specimen that happens to play baseball, but somebody's got a touch and feel, an art for hitting, you know, the art of pitching. A touch and feel for all that. It's been fun to watch. I just get to watch last night, Roman Anthony, a kid that I've watched play through travel ball and through perfect game for a bunch of years. And what a smile, a smile on my face until he hit the home run to center field. But watch his development and growth as a hitter because for me, he still has. He's a pure hitter. There's plate discipline, there's power, there's. There's ability to get the ball, all fields. So I still am a romantic in a lot of areas watching the game, and I don't throw my hands up in the area when I don't see it the way that I want to see it. I try and appreciate some of the nuances and new things about the game that I get to see. [00:33:01] Speaker A: I mean, what does you talk about Altuve, what does separate a career big leaguer to somebody that maybe doesn't make it or somebody that's up there for a brief amount of time. [00:33:12] Speaker B: More often than not, it's. It's grit, it's guts. And you've heard me use this term before, nuts and guts. Perseverance, resilience. You can paint it up and make it a lot prettier, but it's nuts and guts. At the end of the day, the. Everybody's got some want to. It's developing that, how to. To go along with it, and then how do they handle adversity? And that's one of the things I appreciate watching players more than anything else. You know that guy that's five for five, he's running gloves out on the field, handing him out like it's hot dogs as a vendor. The same guy the next day is over five. He can barely get his own butt out the left field with one hat and one glove. I like to watch body language when people aren't performing at their best. Watch the fight. You know, the pitcher that has bad body language when things aren't going as well. The hitter that doesn't have bad body, it has bad bottlings in the box, bad call swinging, a bad pitch. The good ones usually take a pause. They step out, they step off the mound. You can just see them talk to themselves. Then they get back on. It's full speed ahead. So There is a, a method for resiliency and staying in the game. And I just think that that comes down to just keep showing up, but showing up humble and hungry. [00:34:31] Speaker A: You think pregame and endgame routines then are probably a big separator? [00:34:36] Speaker B: They can be because some people still like to practice comfortably. Some people like to make, you know the game. Baseball was the last team sport at the May at the biggest level to the party that started practicing at game speed. You know, baseball, even when I was there, we just started changing some of our practice habits. Where we got velocity, we got fungoes, hit at maximum speed. Just like in the game. It was, yeah, you take, you take ground balls from a fungo hitter, a coach, they're usually bounce, they bounce nice, they hop nice, eat a bunch of reps. We made all our infielders take one round of balls off the bat and bp and then we had early afternoon practice where our coaches go out and smoke balls. But baseball, you know, it's the old coach throwing off the mound 55 miles an hour right around the happy area. Let guys blast ball. Now we're getting into machines, we're getting in a spin, we're getting an alter angles. Football, hockey, basketball, all practice at game speed. We were the last ones of the party. And I do think the elite find ways to make practice uncomfortable so they can be more comfortable in playing the game. And that's one of the things I've shared with teams ever since I started managing was let's work practice so we can actually just play in the game. [00:35:54] Speaker A: What's kind of the protocol for that as far as. Because you don't want to beat them up every day. But, but when do you, When's the art of mixing that in? You're not killing them, you're not beating them up, but you do want to get them to ready to go out and compete. So. [00:36:06] Speaker B: Well, we used to use the eye test and now we've got recovery coaches, we've got nutritionists, we've got training staff, all we put together a group to give us a better feel because you know, I'll tell you, I was, I've been, I've been the violator of the old thing. You know, I'll finally take a guy out of the lineup when he's over 14. Well, there may be a better time to take him out of the lineup. You know, I, I hated taking him out of the lineup after a four for four night. And I would actually have some suggestions from the training staff or this guy. Hey, this would Be a good time based on the data that they can accumulate when a guy's playing. So you all need to work together. Understand it's for the best interest of the player. And I learned a long time ago the number of decisions that I had to make in a day as a manager, I wasn't going to get them all right. I needed to have people that I could lean into, that had. That had skills and strengths in areas that I didn't, to help me make the best decisions for our players. And that's really one of the most amazing things in the clubhouse now. You may have almost as much as support group as you number of players. You have 26 players on an active roster. You may have at least 26 people on that in that clubhouse helping the players, whether it be mental skills, strength, conditioning, agility, recovery, nutritionist, trainers. There's a lot of coaching going on, and I do think we've got to find a way to filter it down to what makes sense for the players and the coaches so we don't overwhelm anybody with too much information. [00:37:38] Speaker A: I text Jamie Carroll, by the way. I was like, hey, I'm interviewing Clinton. Throw some questions and you cover nuts and guts and mentality about showing up every day. But I think about him a lot, too, and he and I discussed this. Do you think if he was coming out now, do you think he'd even have a chance to make it to the big leagues? [00:37:58] Speaker B: He might not. One of the. I'll give you another one that might not. We talk all the time, by the way. [00:38:03] Speaker A: He's that guy that showed up every day. He's the guy that was going to take gloves out and I mean, you were around him for a while. While, and you know how special he is. And I know because I was a teammate of his. He was that guy that showed up every day, whether he had a bad day before or not or a good day before or not. Like, that's what he was. He showed up every day. [00:38:21] Speaker B: He was one of the guys that Dan o' Dowd hand picked over the winter for us to bring in to help us not just on the field, but with clubhouse chemistry, with cohesion. He was. He was glue. It would be hard for him to get drafted nowadays because, number one, we have weight. There's the less amount of draft picks available. You know, you guys just get picked in the 46 round now. You get 20, 21, 22 rounds. But there's a guy that I talked to, David Eckstein. David Eckstein, he was A World Series mvp. Altuvia. I don't know. I mean, a lot is based on size and eye test still, but you got to hit some numbers now to really get attention. And I don't know if Jamie or David would have hit a lot of these numbers the guys are hunting. But again, you can't measure heart, you can't measure grit. And once you put them on the field, they played a lot bigger than they were. Jamie did. [00:39:19] Speaker A: And so David and Jamie gave you a great compliment. He said, you're phenomenal with communicating with players and also doing what you say you're going to do. [00:39:31] Speaker B: Well, that's. That's humbling to hear because I think the goal of any leader should be your actions need to match your words. Because a lot of times in leadership, we want to say something that sounds smart, a catchy phrase. You know, we put slogans on the wall, and I can remember sharing with the guys, whatever we put on the wall, we got to make real. It's got to become real. We got to walk it, we got to talk it. And I can remember early in my time in Pittsburgh, we were walking around Pirate City and revisiting all the different photos. And I go, my gosh, there's a lot of black and white photos around here. We got to put some color on the walls. In other words, we got to come up with some new memories, some new highlights, some new exciting times for Pirate players and fans. And we did, you know, we had a three year run there in Colorado. We were able to get to a space that we'd never been before. Based on, I really believe, more than anything. We had a group of men come up through the minor leagues that cared about each other, that fought for each other, that played hard. Together, they had learned how to win in the minor leagues. It took them some time to learn that in the big leagues, but it became that group where they all cheered for the success of each other. And it's a term you've heard me use, mudita. It's a Buddhist term for expressive joy for the success of someone else. We had it in Pittsburgh those years we had in Colorado. Jamie Carroll was one of those guys that when Holiday had a hit, Jamie's the first one there. You know, Jamie was the first one there. And it became contagious where everybody, if you pour into the success of everybody else, the game's much more fun because if it's all tied to your success, you have a lot of hard nights. You know, if you hit.300, there's seven times you're sad, there's only three times you're happy. But when your buddies get some hits or your buddies, a long reliever that pitches three innings that night, that gives us a shot to come back, or it's the closer or it's the starter, whoever it is. And I can remember telling, asking Jamie, in a real conversation, I asked him one time, I said, I have no idea, how hard is it to come in as a defensive replacement? He said, skip, it's. It's the hardest thing I've ever done because if you do everything right and you're perfect, it's expected. If you make an error, it's like that. You can't even make an error. It's like being a closer, closer can't blow a save. You put a guy in for defense, can't make an error. And it really helped me with my understanding with Jamie and other players that, you know what put them out there. Be the first one there. If things don't go right for them because you put them in that position, don't point your finger at what. No. Be the first one there to put an army around. And when things don't go right. [00:42:11] Speaker A: I saw you guys in 07, by the way. I was in Denver recruiting at the Cherry Creek Classic. So it took a couple of my former Iowa players over to the stadium to see Jamie. And so I got a chance to. You guys are playing the Astros. That Astro team was good too, back then. Good stuff. Hey, you've been around the elite players and pitchers. Do they want to be coached? [00:42:39] Speaker B: Yes. I think most of them want honest feedback, not feel good, pat you on the back, enabling feedback. Most of the elite players I've been around, they don't need bobbleheads in their life. They need people going to tell them the truth. They need truth tellers. I've been around some that didn't need a whole lot of coaching. They just got into a really good spot. Larry Walker, my first year as a hitting coach with Rockies. I don't think we had a cade session together until August. And fortunately, I've been coached up well enough to know there's times when the best coaching you can do is just staying out of the way, not getting in the way, not thinking you got to put your fingerprints on somebody or you gotta, you know, you've got to be the, the guy that, oh, I helped him do this. How many times you ever heard a hitting coach say, hey, you know, that slump that's in right now, that's really my fault because I've asked him to do some things. Outside us. Yeah. No, even Helton. Helton needed firm feedback. He kind of had a football mentality. He wanted the truth. He. He got to the point he trusted my eyes more than his own. Sometimes what I saw, I do think the elite want that, and I do think they appreciate that. And there's no time for BS because they've got, they've got an odometer on that. They can smell it right away. And they've learned from others along the way. And one of the things I, I see most of the elite do, they have conversations with other players that are elite on how they find their way across the room or how they find their way back from a slop or a pitching mechanical, whatever it might be. They cross reference information, they share information. And I know some of them don't do it where you can see it. You know, they'll do it away from the site or they'll do it, you know, social media, text, a phone call or something like that. I've always felt at least my understanding of the really great ones that I've been around. They're always trying to find ways to recreate themselves when they need to. They're not. The status quo doesn't work well. I was good for two years. I can remember Cal Ripken Jr. Coming up with a different batting stance every year after a good year, just because he felt a, B or C, oh, I need to do this. Or Dante Bichette was great at making an adjustment proactively rather than way too late, reactively. They always found ways to reinvent themselves. [00:45:19] Speaker A: What about with rookies? What are the biggest adjustments you have to help rookies with? [00:45:28] Speaker B: One of the things that I was challenged with this year was the. A lot of anxiety, false bravado. You know, one of the things that we had to sit down, have a conversation with this year was, well, I'm okay. What does that mean, you're okay? If I look at your numbers, you're not okay. So why are you saying you're okay? You know, that's. I think that's a young player hoping that you'll believe him, that he's okay and not look him in the eyes, say, no, son, you're not okay. We got work to do. And here's where you're coming up short. Here's what I'm seeing, because okay is American slang for mediocre. And mediocre is a Latin word comes from. I mean, it's an American word taken from two Latin words called Meaty, which is halfway M E D I ochre O C R E which is a stony hill. So if I'm okay, that means I'm halfway up or down a stony hill. How comfortable can that be? And basically there's times I don't think we have time to be okay. We need to honestly self evaluate and say, you know what? I wish I was okay, but I'm not. Here's what I'm feeling, here's. Here's what I'm not seeing. Well, can asking for help's a superpower. It's hard sometimes for young players to actually get to that, that spot where they can just look. [00:46:47] Speaker A: Well, to them it's probably a show of weakness. Correct. [00:46:51] Speaker B: And it's not just young players, it's husbands and wives, it's kids. [00:46:55] Speaker A: Well, there's a 12 step feel to that. It's okay to not be okay. There's a 12 step field of that. It's okay to not be okay. [00:47:02] Speaker B: It's okay to not be okay. And you know, I've worked those steps. There's times when I've worked those steps with hitters and they didn't know. And there's times I worked those steps in the clubhouse with my team. They didn't know I was doing it. To be comfortable in your own skin. And I think once we can get a hitter, pitcher, fielder to be transparent and honestly self, that's when we have the opportunity, when the real coaching starts. Because no player is ever going to let you coach them. Ryan, we've talked about this. No player will ever let you coach them until they trust you. And you've got to earn that trust nowadays more than ever before as a coach, when you play, probably when I know, when I play, you just trusted your coach. It was, it was just. That's the way it was. That's the way we were brought up. But now you got to have some street cred, you know, it's not just back of the baseball card anymore because there's brilliant people working within all sports that never played at the highest level. [00:48:04] Speaker A: But you're a good example over 50 years in the game now you've adjusted with the times too. Like you're a great example of that. [00:48:13] Speaker B: I've. I probably wouldn't have been, but I got the humility knocked out of me earlier. There's two kinds of people in this world, right? Those that are humble and those that are about to be. And I've had to learn the hard way a lot of life. Well, the lessons I talked about in my book, hurdle isms, hard lessons, you know, life lessons. And I tied a personal experience to it and a professional experience to it. And I've always tried to be a person that was a lifelong learner. I love school. I just never went to college. It didn't work out. Didn't go that way for me. But I've always loved learning. There are some things that I didn't want to learn. You know, Snow Scheme didn't do well at it, didn't stay at it, didn't want to learn that. But a lot of things, when I first couldn't figure them out, where I failed, the failure didn't blow me up to the point where I know I think I can do this. I just got to find a better way to do it, or I need to go talk to somebody who's done it before and find out what their thinking was to help me do it. [00:49:13] Speaker A: I think about changes in the game, though. But if you think about 2025 to 1975, when around you, you started. If you think about 1975 to 1925, I'm sure the game in 1975 was way different than the game they played in 1925. [00:49:30] Speaker B: It's kind of funny because I'll share with some of my old buddies that they'll never get back in the game because they're just grumpy and, you know, they're just mad. Whether it's the money, whether it's the Ghost Runner, whether it's the strike zone, whether it's whatever, you know, if you don't learn. The one thing we're promised in life is change. And every generation has bitched about the generation before, whether it's been, you know what in whatever school economics, you know, banking, all of it. Because change brings upon controversy if you allow it to. I've just tried to stay up with the times. I still. There's some things in the game, like I mentioned the Ghost Runner. I can't stand the Ghost Runner. I can't. You play the game one way for nine innings. And I used to be the proponent also that in. In September, how you could have 25 men for five months in September, you can call up 12 more and play a whole different game in the month of September at the major. They used to drive me crazy, but did I utilize it to my every advantage? I could. A couple years. Absolutely. I will tell you this. The Ghost Runner, which I thought whatever, but our manager, Warren Shaffer, got thrown out of a game in Milwaukee a couple weeks ago. I Took over in the fourth inning. We played like three innings with a ghost runner. Oh, my God, it was crazy. I. Watching it on tv, being in the minor leagues, in the stands, even being in the dugout as the hitting coach. We had some extra inning games or just the bench coach. It never took on the impact that it did that one day where I was managing the 10th and 11th innings with a ghost runner. It was more exciting. It was maddening. I remember my daughter sending me a text, giving me a voicemail. Maddie, who's now 22, Our special needs daughter, she called me on the phone, said, dad, that game made me sick. She goes, you know, from her perspective, too. But should I fight it? Should I wrestle it or should I lean into it, embrace it? [00:51:38] Speaker A: It's the play you play, the hand you're dealt. [00:51:41] Speaker B: That's right. And I tell you what, it was some of the most exciting to be in that front step in a different, different environment. Okay, I see. Yeah, I can see why the fans love it. Some fans. [00:51:54] Speaker A: What do coaches at the lower levels need to hear about coaching right now? [00:51:59] Speaker B: It's still about relationships, and it will always be about relationships. It's. It's about transformational leadership. Not, not, not transactional leadership. Be there for the players. Remember all the things that you appreciated out of the good coaches you had and remember all the things that you. That made you cringe about some of the coaches that you didn't get along with or you didn't think were there to serve you. Be a lifelong learner. Realize there's. There's not one way to do anything. There's multiple ways that can get done and to give players an opportunity to fail. And I still think that's been a challenge for me, watching our game evolve in the last five years as we've turned into a sport, which in some cases we're trying to leverage every opportunity. More can be learned from failure than there can be from success. And I do believe there's something for, for every pitcher, player, fielder, hitter, to give them an opportunity to be the hero or the goat. Because over time you'll realize who can handle that pressure, who can learn from it, and then maybe who can't but give them the opportunity. Because too many times we're pinch hitting here. Your plays are already drawn up. Games are mostly. You know, some games are drawn up already at the major league level. If they do this, you do this. They do this, you do this. That's why we came up with the opener, right, because we didn't have enough starters and it's hard to watch sometimes when you don't give players a chance to fail in the minor leagues. It's even permeated to some degree. I've watched that. What a better place than the minor leagues, though, than to give players an opportunity to fail. [00:53:41] Speaker A: Who had the most impact on you as a manager? [00:53:47] Speaker B: Probably still to this day, Whitey Herzog. It wasn't so much as when I played for him twice. It was what I learned for him after playing for him. Because for whatever reason, when I started managing, Whitey and I got back together. When I'd go into St. Louis to manage the Pirates or the Rockies or whatever, we'd have breakfast or lunch or something. He'd be down in my office that afternoon. He watched our games when, you know, and then before I come into town, he'd talk about a game we played in Seattle or a game over. He continued to impact me from that angle way beyond the lessons I learned from him as a player. And actually, he made a comment one day was probably the best compliment. He goes, you were. You paid way more attention than I thought you did to what I had to say as a player. And I go, yeah, my actions probably weren't as good as they should have been, but I always respected the way he had the ability to make the 25th man on the team feel just as important as the. As the number one starter or the cleanup hitter. He brought everybody together. He continually learned he transcended the game of baseball. A lot of different areas, from the platoon to the, you know, defense speed. Whitey Ball, probably, yeah. But there's others. There was Don Baylor, there was Dick Hauser, Johnny McNamara. I was fortunate to Jimmy Fry his rookie year managing. We went to the World Series. I learned a little bit from everybody, and I also learned some things that I would never do from some of them as well. [00:55:19] Speaker A: Is there probably. There's probably not that camaraderie with opposing managers anymore, is there? [00:55:26] Speaker B: You know, I can't speak to that. I know I had some of it still as long as 2019 because some of us had been in the game together for a long time. Garden hire, you know, Bocchi Francona. Tito's back now. Dusty Baker. I was able to see Dusty earlier in the year in San Francisco. We laughed about some of the things that went on when we were managing each other. And there were some guys that you just didn't get along with at all from any other dugout that was real. There was a time when the NL Central was a nasty division to play. And it was tough. It was hard. But I've learned from a lot. Mike Matheny, I mean, he picked me for his all star team in 2014 to be a coach. I was a coach twice in the All Star Game. I managed in the All Star Game. I brought in Buddy Black as a man, is a pitching coach for the all star game in 2008. So I know it was there then. I'm not sure how much it's in place now because I'm really not in that face. [00:56:23] Speaker A: All right, everybody's got to answer this one. Do you have a fail forward, fail forward moment, something you thought was going to set you back, but looking back now, it helped you move forward? [00:56:33] Speaker B: Oh, for sure. Truthfully, every time I've been fired, but the first time of consequence magnitude was getting fired in Colorado 18 months earlier. We went to the World Series and getting fired there and then having a year in between where I was a hitting coach for the Rangers. So I got to look at the game from a different angle. After eight years of managing and over that time, never really hunting a manager's job, I. I've always been good at. Not always, but I. I learned the value of being where my feet are. But being fired in Colorado for whatever reason, it also kind of made me understand that no, for me, as long as God wants me to spot, no man can move me out of it. And when God doesn't want me to spot, no man can keep me in it. And I went from Colorado to a wonderful year in Texas, World Series hitting coach, built relationships, front office guys, and then that kind of put me in the position to be the manager of the Pirates for nine years. And then when I was fired in Pittsburgh, I got two years off with my family. I'd never had a job where I got paid to not do a job. That's the first time that ever happened in my life. So I think just my encouragement is that moment that you think that it might be the worst thing that happened, there might be a lesson, and it's the best thing that ever happened to. [00:58:10] Speaker A: Would you relay to Josh Hamilton about sobriety? [00:58:14] Speaker B: Well, we just talked about controlling the moment and, and understanding that cravings are going to come and go and that thoughts are going to come and go. It's what you do with them. And most of the time in my drinking days, all these thoughts, oh, there was plenty of times when I had stopped drinking. I could not. I could not stay stopped. And basically I didn't use the tools that I had available to continue forward in a sober lifestyle. I would fall back. I would make up excuses, I would tell myself lies. You could always find somebody to drink with or party with. I just. We would just challenge each other that, you know, we're at our strongest when we're on our knees and acknowledge the fact that you're having a feeling and then refute it with the proper thoughts or actions. That gets you in a different space and you're not involved with that thinking anymore. [00:59:10] Speaker A: Your third marriage help you with that? [00:59:12] Speaker B: It did. You know, having a child born with a birth defect helped me with that. My relationship with Jesus has helped me with that. I mean, I. As I share in my book Hurdle Isms, I mean, I. I can remember when I was at one of my lowest lows. I made a list of things I thought I did well and things I didn't think I'd do well. And I was going to figure out how to, you know, balance them all out or chart a course back to normalcy. But the top of my list was to rededicate my life to Christ, get sober. I can't tell you what the other 16 were, that those two facilitated everything else and understanding that if I can wake up today, number one, be thankful that I've woken up today because the alarm clock didn't wake me up. God woke me up. He's given me a day. I can't do anything about yesterday. I. I don't even know if I'll get to tomorrow, but to find a way to pour in today. That's why I have been looking forward to doing this with you, because I knew you would be prepared. I knew you would do a wonderful job. I knew you would represent the ABCA in this interview. And I just wanted to make the time work. So like you said, I got things to do. But you're the most important person in my life in this time right now because I think we're sharing good stuff that may help other people. [01:00:36] Speaker A: How do you mix those into your morning or evening routines to help you stay at it is. It's a one day at a time thing. That's a 12. It is one day at a time. It's okay. Today's done, folks. On the money. It really is a one day at a time thing. [01:00:51] Speaker B: It is. And I. I used to focus on balance. I've given up on balance. I look for rhythm now because the baseball season, it has its own balance. I'm not the same guy during the baseball season that I am in the off season. I need to find ways to Remind myself that the first thing I touch in the morning isn't my phone, it's my wife. When I'm with her, I need to find ways that I do need quiet time in the morning because it's the one time of the day that I do have control over until 10 o' clock comes and I've got a podcast to do or whatever. And then there's nights when you know what the best thing I can do is take a walk with my wife or take a swim with my daughter, or do something that just settles me. I have what I, what I share with people if I'm hungry, angry, lonely, or tired. In aa, we talk about this, but it works for me in life, the way I reset. I either work out, I take a swim in the ocean. Sometimes I've cried. Salt water is my elixir, whether it's sweat, tears or the ocean. And those are usually three places I'll go if I need need some space. Maybe it's a walk. I don't do much running anymore, but I'll get on a treadmill, I'll take a walk, I'll get outside where it's hot, do some type of activity. And there's times I still realize at 67, it's okay to cry because what I'm feeling is real. [01:02:23] Speaker A: We need more of that to release emotions. I think what you see now is people hold on to everything and they don't get it out. And then it comes out in all kinds of unproductive ways if you don't release those emotions. [01:02:37] Speaker B: I couldn't agree with you more. [01:02:38] Speaker A: And by the way, I love the fact that when you sent me the schedule and I was trying to line it up with you, you were like, no, Colorado, when we're home, that's my, my family time. And setting boundaries I think is a great one too. I love the fact that you set those boundaries that when. When I'm at home in Denver, that's time for my family. [01:02:58] Speaker B: Well, thank you. Because that was another lesson learned the hard way. Because for many years I didn't realize the word no was actually a complete sentence. [01:03:06] Speaker A: Yes. [01:03:07] Speaker B: And by being able to say no, I can say yes to some more important things. [01:03:14] Speaker A: Do you have a favorite hurdle ism? [01:03:21] Speaker B: Yes. And I think that the one on being a Life, a white belt mentality to be a lifelong learner. There were times in my life I thought I knew everything. Smallest package in the world is a man wrapped up in himself. I use that in the book as well. But my son really brought it home for me on being a white belt mentality. When he shared with me that, you know, I think in the book, I write it up, he was my son. I believe all our children are gifts from God and help us grow in areas we wouldn't grow on our own. My oldest daughter, Ashley's 39, and she's helped me grow in areas I never would have grown. Having a special needs daughter, Maddie, has helped me grow in areas I never would have grown. But my son retiring from baseball at the age of four. When you're the manager of a major league team and then you go to another major league team in Pittsburgh and you're the manager and your son does not want to play ball, he's basically baseball. After his first year of T ball at the age of four, he said, dad, too intense. I'm out. He went to tennis, then he went to karate. Then he ended up fall in love with crew, which is a tremendous sport. But the. But the karate thing was he went to get. Told us he needed some money. He's going to get his uni uniform. Well, I don't think they're called uniform. He goes, you're right. They're called obies. I'm going to get a robe and I'm going to get a belt, okay? He brought him home. I said, hey, go put that thing on and show us some of the things you learned today, okay? He comes down, he's starting to show us the moves and the kicks, but he forgot the belt. So it was obi's hanging open. I can see his under. I'm like, oh, whoa, time out, dude. Slow. You forgot the belt. He goes, oh, my gosh. Yeah. He goes, let me get my belt. So he puts on his belt. He comes down. He said, you see what kind of belt I got? He's nine. I go, yeah. I'm thinking, you know, Ryan, I'm thinking, yeah, you got the white belt, man. You don't know nothing. You're. You're a beginner. He goes, yeah, I got the best belt. I go, why is this at the best belt? He goes, dad, the white belt is the best belt because it means you get to learn everything. Nine years old. From that moment on, he's 20 now. For 11 years, that has been a pivotal refrain. I keep in my head when I get to something that's hard or something I don't understand or something that's making me angry. So wait, there's a lesson here. There's something I can learn here, so slow down and pay attention. That would, that would be my, my favorite hurdle. [01:06:00] Speaker A: Ism, tabula rasa, Clean slate. [01:06:04] Speaker B: Amen. He also, as I share with good friends, he neutered me as a father because I never. He picked sports I knew nothing about. So I couldn't overcoach my own son ever. I couldn't even second guess the coaches because I didn't know enough about the sport. What father doesn't? I mean, we live and breathe to overcoach our son and second guess the coach, don't we? I just show up with the car and the snacks and drive around at the end of it and say, hey, how do we do? Do we have fun? All right. Which was what I needed. [01:06:33] Speaker A: And you and I connected two years ago in Dallas. And then I thank you again for speaking this year at the convention because it was, it was phenomenal. So what were your thoughts about the convention? [01:06:43] Speaker B: You know, it was the first time I kind of thought I knew what to expect because I'd been to a few, I heard speakers speak, but the day before to prep and to look out at that auditorium and all the chairs and then realize that I'm probably not going to see past the first 20 rows no matter what. And then the next day with the walk up song and all that, I was prepared. But it was so humbling because I was able to share 50 years in baseball experience strength and hope from the heart, transparently. And the comments that I've gotten back since then, the number of people that have bought the book because of hearing me share openly and transparently that it's been just what I'd hoped it would be. I was used as an extension with my faith, my love for the game. You know, I shared early that my life, my life trajectory changed when my dad looked down at me as a five year old kid, said hey, you want to play catch? I'm still playing catch. And the ABCA gave me a very unique opportunity and probably my most gifted part of life because I had learned and was able to share what I had learned, not what I invented, not, you know, all this other thing. It was a very special moment for me and I thank the ABCA for it. [01:08:14] Speaker A: What are some final thoughts before I let you go? [01:08:18] Speaker B: We still need to be kind, we need to be helpful, we need to be of service. That's it, man. That's still it. Love on your family. That's it. [01:08:27] Speaker A: And your point about social is correct and I've gone that route too. Where it's, it should be to put good things out into the universe. [01:08:38] Speaker B: I mean, I'm on Instagram, I'm on Facebook, I'm on IG. I mean, I mean, I'm on X, I'm on LinkedIn, but all the messaging is a positivity of smiles, and I don't get caught up and I get blasted. You don't think I get blasted? Especially now, coming back to this job, I don't even respond. Or I'll just say, hey, smile. Or hey, thanks for the feedback, and I just move on. I got something else to do. [01:09:04] Speaker A: People in my inner circle, they, they use. They like to. Huh, huh, huh. [01:09:09] Speaker B: That's a good one. That's a good one. Because my son said, be light, be bright, and be polite. Dad, just get out of there. [01:09:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Clint, thanks for your time. I know you're right in the middle of season, but thank you so much for your time. It means a lot. [01:09:24] Speaker B: Ryan, you're welcome. I love spending time with you. This was very fun. I enjoyed this and I look forward to seeing our finished product. Now, you'll be Monday week. For Monday, hopefully we get. We get some good feedback from some people and we've been some help along the way. [01:09:39] Speaker A: Yes, sir. Appreciate you. [01:09:40] Speaker B: Appreciate you, brother. Be well. [01:09:43] Speaker A: I've enjoyed every ABCA podcast, but this one will have a special place for me. Love that Clint has so much more in the tank and hope he continues to stay in the game. Thanks again to John Litchfield, Zach Hale, and Matt west in the ABCA office for all the help on the podcast. Feel free to reach out to me via email rbrownleyabca.org Twitter, Instagram, or TikTok oachbabca or direct message me via the MyABCA app. This is Ryan Brownlee signing off with American Baseball Coaches Association. Thanks. And leave it better for those behind. [01:10:25] Speaker B: And you know that way Yep Wait. [01:10:29] Speaker A: For another day. [01:10:33] Speaker B: And the world will always return as your life was never for your name and you know that way Wait for another other.