[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the abca's podcast. I'm your host, ryan brownlee.
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Contact them today at 844-620-2707 or infoettingpros.com, visit them online at www.nettingpros.com or check out NettingPros on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn for all their latest products and projects. Make sure to let CEO Will Miner know that the ABCA sent you. Now on to the Podcast Today's ABCA Podcast guest is at the forefront of research where nutrition, exercise and cutting edge science all collide. Dr. Catherine Sands is an Assistant professor at the Ohio State University, a researcher focused on understanding how exercise and nutrition influence the molecular mechanisms behind energy and metabolism.
Work asks big questions how can we combine training and diet to optimize metabolic health, performance and recovery and how we can personalize those approaches for athletes?
At the core of our work is a mission to move beyond one size fits all approaches towards truly personalized strategies for health and performance.
Dr. Sands has spent time working with collegiate baseball players and professionally with the Cleveland Guardians.
We cover a wide range of nutrition and recovery topics in this podcast, so get your patent pen ready. So welcome Dr. Katherine Sands to the podcast here with Dr. Katherine Sands, assistant professor for Ohio State University, Consultant of the Athletic Department, but was on with us at the Hot Stove in Columbus on the Strength and conditioning Hot Stove. So we finally got connected. So thanks for jumping on with me
[00:03:22] Speaker B: oh, thanks for the invite. It's such an honor and pleasure to be here. I'm super psyched.
[00:03:26] Speaker A: Yeah, just take us through your path a little bit for how you got to Ohio State.
[00:03:31] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So I studied exercise science in under undergrad at the University of Maryland. And actually that was my first experience working more formally with a baseball team. So I got to, I was the intern for Maryland baseball for a couple of semesters and at the time I was sports medicine. I really saw myself on field in more of a clinical, more like hands on aspect at that same time, which I think is really awesome for the undergrad experience. I was helping in different research labs and just learning more in classes. And the thing that stuck out to me so much was that, that you could get bigger, faster and stronger through supplements. And I just love the supplement world. So I took that and got guided by some really great professors to pursue it for graduate school, where I ended at the University of Connecticut.
And I got to study under Jeff Bullock for my Master's. So I looked at protein and different types of hydration supplements and high level athletes, which was really awesome. But more than anything I learned that you didn't have to stop studying at the supplement, you could study the whole diet. That's what took me into my PhD. My PhD really focused on human performance, human health and habitual diet and training style. It's this combo of all these things, but it was really focused on exercise science.
Then I had an opportunity about halfway through my doctorate to take a lot more nutrition courses. I did take all exercise and all nutrition courses, then also did some work in molecular genetic areas too. So it was looking at athletes and how these things start to change, some of those more molecular signatures of performance and metabolism and health. And so it was really awesome. It always sounds really cool, but also very, very benchtop. And I wanted to work closer with athletics itself. So I had this awesome academic journey. When I started looking at jobs, it was really, really back to the basic science, like the nitty gritty details of things. And I just had, I think got good conversations with mentors, good conversations with family and friends who really knew me and were like, do you see yourself in that or do you see yourself like outside working with people? And so I went back to school, so I felt like I needed more time working like in more of that, like immediate action again. And so I completed my dietetics. It's actually not very common to do your dietetics post PhD, especially coming from a different field. It's funny now because everyone typically chats to me about nutrition. But my. My journey is really exercise science and then of course has a heavy nutrition umbrella to it, but it's really exercise science. And so then I did all my nutrition work and really brought out exercise and nutrition from like a clinical perspective.
From there, I had an opportunity to connect with amazing coaches.
Coach Carlisle. Dwayne Carlisle, who is a strength coach at Purdue University at the time, was just this, like, really.
This really awesome person in my life who. Who found some of the skill sets I had and heard that I was interested in these other areas and was like, why don't you consider exploring what this looks like in athletics again? And I really got excited by that opportunity. So I had an opportunity to consult and start working with teams and start getting to do a bit more of the testing that we did in the lab. But now on the field, which was sort of coming out a little bit more at the time. And I was able to have an opportunity with the Cleveland Guardians for my postdoc.
And my postdoc was on specializing on building like, nutrition programs and bringing out more of the sports science and metrics that were starting to come out at the time and sort of like have them ingrained in the process. It was very much like a team approach, though. Like, I was one voice in this project that was trying to get those things off the ground. So I was with the Cleveland Guardians for a little bit of time and then had an opportunity to jump back into academia to essentially find ways to bridge those two worlds together. And so I was at a different institution down in Florida at Jacksonville University. Also has great athletics and just really good environment and sunshine. So it was a lot of fun.
But the opportunity at Ohio State brought in just a chance to do more of my foundation, more research, more student involvement, and more translation. I was really happy. I think it's important to say that I was really happy at each of the positions I was at and just try for the next position. I didn't feel.
I think sometimes you're in a position where you're ready for your next step. I was really excited to get experience meeting new people, but I was very happy in the positions I was at. And then it just sort of click to come to Ohio States. I've been here for a couple of years now and yeah, each day I get to like meet more people and expand in this performance world. It's awesome.
[00:08:37] Speaker A: Well, that's. That seems like it's part of your personality where I think you're probably going to be Happy wherever you're at.
[00:08:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
I mean, I think it also. I've been really lucky to land on good teams. I think that's a major piece to it.
So you have an opportunity to meet good people and good people are working on good things.
Because anyone that's worked in a more challenging environment, like you're clawing at the walls, that's not good for anybody. But these environments were so positive and supportive. It was just awesome.
[00:09:09] Speaker A: Over your studies and your research, what maybe you thought was good in theory but not good in practice.
[00:09:15] Speaker B: Oh, that's a good one.
Good in theory. I think it's less that it's not good in practice. It might just not be ready to transition because we're so.
Because when you have an opportunity to do research in an environment, I think that's true for any type of big change.
We have an opportunity to study it in the most focused way and by design, remove any distraction.
So to transition that into a team environment. So I'll take an example like body composition testing, especially in baseball, if I do body comp testing in the lab, I'm doing body comp testing at least three different methods. And each method I'm doing through six different metrics. And I am incredibly detailed about the way that person is going to show up to the lab, their experience with it, the way we're going to do data analysis. We have so much time to work through the statistics and present. It's so systematic.
Then I worked with teams and you just do body comp wherever it fits in. Like 3pm we just finished.
I don't know, we just got out of the weight room, get them into the BOD pod. The types of body composition assessments we were doing, the methods, that was such a shock to me.
I think it's a disservice to work in the research field if you haven't worked on a team and vice versa. I think if you are working on a team and you're interested in their R and D or their sports science or any of the data, you should spend at least a day with someone in the lab because the disconnect is wild. So I think it makes no sense for me to do hydration testing for every single app and have all of them sleep eight hours, no food or drink before they show up to the lab. That's not going to work on my teams. But I do think we can put some SOPs in place that if everybody understands why that's being done.
And I also was shocked at the amount of decisions that were Made off of this value that was collected the way it was and tracked the way it was. Like, oh, we can do better. And so we have done better for that. Like bringing those two worlds together.
[00:11:33] Speaker A: What are some misconceptions that maybe high school or college athletes have about nutrition?
[00:11:38] Speaker B: Oh, all of them. Right. Like, so many, I think. Well, I, like, I'd have to flip it back to you. Like, what do you hear on your end that we can tackle?
[00:11:49] Speaker A: Well, and I'm glad you studied supplementation, because I think that's a big one. Yeah. And. And I'm always intrigued to get people's thoughts on the supplementation piece because I think where I see it from coaches and athletes is they're. They're taking supplementation over proper nutrition.
[00:12:07] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:12:07] Speaker A: So they feel like supplementation is going to cover up for improper nutrition.
[00:12:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And it makes sense. Like in your mind, this, the label. Actually we just had an assignment in the grad class where they had to take a supplement and challenge the label. The claims made on the label, but the claims made on these bottles or these supplements, like, they are. They promise. You're like, I got it. All I gotta do is the scoop of like, done. This is easy that I can do. But to meal plan, to prep, to, like, that's quite overwhelming and exhausting at times.
And I think also from the high school perspective and the collegiate perspective, you might not have control over that groceries, but you can, you can like take your. Take a vitamin or you can like check out a protein powder. Like, all of that is very accessible. You probably aren't the one making a grocery list and going shopping on your own. So that, you know, that's also a very real part of it now with
[00:13:11] Speaker A: the guardians, you know, with pro, they have so many resources, so. And obviously you can lay it out. How were they exactly laying it out for their players with the guardians?
[00:13:21] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, that's a good question. So we. So when I started, there wasn't a formal nutrition education program. That was. That was like, sort of my charge. So I got hired under James Harris, who's a dietitian himself, but also has an experience. I think this part's really awesome too. Again, like, getting connected with good people.
He had so much experience with understanding, like the culture of athletics in the pro environment, which I was coming from the collegiate setting, it's so. It's so different.
So from that perspective, and also baseball is so unique where your academies are and your, Your player development is ingrained in your professional streamlining processes where, like a lot of other leagues aren't like that. While you do have like your, your development leagues, teams connected to it, it's not necessarily like the same type of feeder. And so having it's so different. It's like you've got 16 year olds and 30 year olds and they're all on the roster. And even for the 40 man roster, like the age discrepancies, the development, both player wise and also physically, it's like such a huge spectrum but everybody still has to show up ready to do their part and everybody starts to work towards a World Series.
So having an opportunity to sit in a room and find ways to get like a foundation down and a team culture of what nutrition philosophy was, was like a really big step. And those are things I wouldn't learn in school. That's something I had to learn, like being part of an organization. And I thought that part was really, was really awesome that I took away from me. Like if you're starting, do we have a philosophy where we say like for example, lay out our food first approach, lay out what our supplement philosophy was, what's permissible, what's not even education on what are you going to get tested on what might be provided. In a lot of that setting, players are buying it for themselves, but we're under the umbrella of how do we make sure they're okay in that and how do they have the resources to get what they need to do.
And then there's also the challenge which is a little different. Maybe a little bit more common now in the collegiate setting, but possibly not as much in college baseball.
Your salary is so different person to person in the pro setting. And so some of it's like did your agent get you something or you know, there's so many more voices and so many more chefs in the kitchen in the pro setting than in the college setting.
It was really about building trust and education and everybody had to have the same message.
College is a little different.
[00:16:02] Speaker A: How would you attack then?
Because obviously every age group needs to eat differently. So if you're programmed for a 16 year old high school kid and then you're programmed for a 24 year old college athlete, what are the differences between those two?
Or is there?
[00:16:18] Speaker B: Yeah, there is. You know, I think the youth athletes for the younger athletes, no 16 year old wants to be a youth athlete. Right. But then the like rookie guys I think are so eager to get to the next step. Like they're not jaded yet. They haven't been.
They're so hopeful and they're. And they also are still adolescent. So I think they're a lot more used to being told what to do. So I think there was an opportunity there to educate on like what food is. I mean we just spent time on what food is and what it does on the field and less about one on one consults while those were still in place. Because you still have to get certain athletes that might be getting put into like they're sort of getting developed to see where they might be placed on the fields for. So especially I worked quite a bit in our Dominican academy. So for athletes that they're still trying to figure out, like you got scouted for this position but you might have been like multi position athlete. So how do we develop you in this particular position?
Their time on field is so different than some of the other time on fields or what they might have been doing. But there's six. You can get away with so much at 16.
So a lot of what I did actually was ask our major league athletes that would come down and just make appearances to do my talking if they could share with the athletes like where nutrition fits in for them. They that was gonna do so much better than any smoothie demonstration I could do at any point.
[00:17:48] Speaker A: But what were their tips? What were the big leaguers tips?
[00:17:51] Speaker B: Oh, the big leaguer tips said really awesome things. A lot of them said like nutrition started to matter the older they got. Like their training got them there. But nutrition was like their longevity. And a lot of them also shared tips on like don't wait too, like I waited too long for me to care about it and then I had to react as opposed to being proactive about it. Those are like the big themes they
[00:18:15] Speaker A: had, you know, and that's a tough schedule for those guys to be able to get their nutrition in at times.
[00:18:22] Speaker B: Oh yeah, yeah. I think that's what I had to learn so much about baseball world. Like the on field nutrition. The day to day field nutrition is like nothing too radical. And I think that can feel very boring for an athlete because you're expecting like I'm getting this, I'm going to eat that. Like actually on a day to day we want to keep it pretty steady more than anything in baseball. It's like can you have the grit to sustain a professional season at the pro level, in the college level? Like can you have it to sustain your college season and then are you playing summer ball on top of the fact that you have an academic schedule? So like it's more the resiliency and the recovery parts and Those aren't the flashy parts of nutrition. Those are like really foundational, but they have to be consistently addressed.
[00:19:11] Speaker A: What are some of the nutritional. Because there's some cheap options out there. Are there decent, cheaper options? Because I always hear, well, it's cheaper to eat unhealthy than healthy. But obviously if you're trying to sustain some sort of a career in anything, you need to eat. Right?
[00:19:26] Speaker B: Right. Yeah, absolutely. It's like you can't, it's gonna catch up to you at some point. Like, I don't care who you are, if you're looking, especially if we're talking about athletes that are transition into the professional environment, you can't, you can't escape it. Like your oxidative stress levels, the amount of muscle mass you need to maintain over the season, the cognition you need to have to be able to handle late season games. And also just your mental like acuity during a game.
On top of all of that, I think for baseball players, like sleep, your sleep is so erratic in the pro leagues because you're crossing time zones. Um, if you're still in one of the minor league teams of your bus rides, like, what you're going to be exposed to, what you have access to is so different every day and it's, it can be quite limiting at times. So you have to have these like foundational nutrition pieces as part of it.
So that's one you need to have buy in and to be in it for the long haul and know that like, it's not an exciting part of your game, it's just a consistent part. I think that part, that part I think is really hard. You get bored, you get tired of it, or you get injured, or you get some sort of losing streak and you want to change up. Like, I'm not going to eat bananas before I'm going to eat them after you start doing really things that don't have logic to them, but they feel right. So we're going to go with it. So there's that piece to it. And then the financial aspect is very real. So if we look at it per calorie per gram of that particular food per dollar, fat is actually the most affordable because it's the most calorie dense. However, by absolute values, fat is the most expensive. Protein is pretty expensive as well. So your carbohydrates are the most simple. If we're just talking like foundational gram per calorie per dollar.
However, whole foods are both challenging in price, but they're also harder to access during a season.
So you're hitting double whammy. Like you have to go out of your way. So it might cost more money just to get the food that you're looking for. If they're gonna do like a grocery trip or something like that. And then you have to be able to purchase it, it's a little bit more and then you have to eat it faster. So like again, if you're in the summer, it's a hot bus ride and then you're off the bus for a little bit, your groceries will spoil. Like just those, those parts of it, they're so hard.
And then if you're buying produce on a day to day that can have a higher ticket price than if you're buying like crackers with beef jerky at a rest stop.
So how do we handle that? We do have to find ways to like, I think in that sector, like a team has to sort of be more present of how we can invest in, how we can invest in some like whole foods.
Because some of the more affordable options have to be present for you to be able to sustain, like get enough calories in. Right.
Typically my approach for that is like start with whatever you wanted to start with wherever anybody is on the bus and then just add something real and fresh at every meal and slowly that starts to like transition into more sustainable options.
[00:22:45] Speaker A: And you mentioned sleep. I mean, where's the napping piece fit in with all of this?
[00:22:51] Speaker B: You know, we just did some cool research on that. Like where does napping fit into recovery? Like it might. So I'm not a nap expert. I wouldn't consider myself sleep expert at all either. But from napping I know that there's some very real benefits to it. But in the work that we've seen from a recovery standpoint, like if we're just going to relate it to physical recovery, then we need sleep, like extended sleep hours.
So napping has benefits that might be separate from that. So I think it's also so framing in that. Like, I think if we especially like in ET there are like younger college athletes or our rookie league athletes, you can get away with low sleep and just be playing video games till all hours.
I think it's also real that they might come off of a night game and then like you need time to calm down before the next day and you might have like an early day to be at the field depending on what your series looks like.
So encouraging sleep is one half of the battle and then finding restful sleep is another. But what I always share with the Athlete like, especially for those that have trouble maintaining their muscle mass during the season or even have trouble adding it to begin with, and then they see big declines of muscle or total body mass during the season.
If your sleep can be improved in any capacity, you're going to find yourself meeting that halfway.
[00:24:16] Speaker A: Well, isn't that. It's almost like the supplementation over Whole Foods deal too, where it's like, okay, I might get three hours of sleep at night and then I'm gonna nap during the day. While you're still losing a massive amount of recovery because you're not sleeping enough.
[00:24:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's like a measurable amount. If we're not hitting the metrics, it's hard to tell an athlete. Like, you need to get seven to nine hours every night, which is what, like, the research suggests from a physical recovery standpoint. Like, we're looking at seven to nine hours. However, like, you might not finish that game till 10. You're not getting off the field till midnight. You're eating somewhere in that. And like, you. Depending on how that game went, like, you're coming home pretty wired. So I think finding tools that start at the clubhouse or start in your locker room to get yourself in like a restful mentality, I don't know. One of the biggest challenges. So this is all like in the perfect setting. But to be honest, like the athletes that I worked with, especially in the pro setting, one of the biggest challenges they said was like insomnia, like, how do I get to sleep? So I think that's where we start to look at the individual plans on, like, do we have some recovery modalities that we can start to incorporate post game that just allow like the whole nervous system to start to. To relax and to start to come down.
Can we also get like the. This is where it's like such a heavy team approach. Like the sports psych or the mental.
The mental health specialist. What's it called?
[00:25:40] Speaker A: Like, the mental peak performance coaches.
[00:25:42] Speaker B: Mental skills. Yeah. Like, can we get them, like, pull them in? I mean, they're already doing this.
[00:25:47] Speaker A: But can plenty of sleep audio.
Plenty of sleep audios out there.
[00:25:51] Speaker B: Oh my gosh, so many. And can nutrition and strength, conditioning and our mental skills team, like, come together for post came or post recovery tactics that maybe there's like some sort of routine that can be put in place.
I know some teams are doing it. I don't know to what success, but I hope it's very successful. But I know some teams have that already ingrained. And then are there Tools and resources that we can give that athlete that like, okay, maybe there's less pressure on you falling asleep, but is there something you can do where you're feeling like that breath come back post game? Especially if it's an athlete that we know you've got to play the next day and we don't, you know, again, you don't know how that game just went and they might have to play the next day. And there's so much like mental components to baseball. So places where nutrition can fit in. There might be some of those nutritional deficiencies, especially the micronutrient deficiencies. Like the. All of the skill sets we just talked about are so foundational. We also. That's where the whole foods come in. Like, we also want to make sure your vitamins and nutrients are in a good spot. Because if you're low or misbalanced on any of those, even something like electrolytes, you will have poor sleep. Like, those are directly tied to your sleep metabolism.
So if we can find ways to get some fresh produce or some fresh foods earlier in the day and some good proteins and fresh foods post game, that tends to have like a better, a better entrance into restful recovery.
[00:27:20] Speaker A: But the hard part is that digestion disrupts sleep. So like for athletes that have late games, they're gonna have to eat post game at some point, but it is going to disrupt your sleep because your body's digesting rather than allowing you to get to bed.
[00:27:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I think depending on how we structure that meal. That's true.
But we can also be more intentional with it. So there's some pretty cool work and really great work about consuming a higher protein meal. Helping with some sleep metrics. It can't just be any protein. So we're not talking about.
Again, I'm thinking of my athletes. Like, that doesn't mean go out and buy six rotisserie chickens. It also doesn't mean to go out and buy like a bunch of burgers or you know, and they're like, well, it's high protein. Like, okay, that's not what I meant.
[00:28:06] Speaker A: Obviously athletes, what would you recommend for protein for that?
[00:28:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I think a protein that's as close to its natural source as possible. So trying to reduce it being breaded and fried, trying to reduce it being like a pizza source. If it's happening sporadically. Okay. But if it's your go to, like you leave the clubhouse and you're going to order a pizza approach, you're going to order fast food, that starts to get challenging. If We've got things like cheese sticks, protein powder. I think that's where it starts to come in.
[00:28:42] Speaker A: It's casein. Right? The slow release.
[00:28:44] Speaker B: Yeah, casein would be slow release. Casein also triggers tryptophans. It triggers like it triggers like a couple of sleep physiology downstream from it as well. But you can get that from poultry, you can get that from beef, you can get that from seafood. And let's say it's a plant based athlete or an athlete that just feels better consuming a more plant based approach at that point then I do something that's a bit more compact, like a bean burger or something, anything really high fiber. Well then we're talking about some more challenges if it's very close to sleep. So a perfect post game meal would have like a good source of protein that's as close to its original as possible. But of course like season and you know, appetizing but as close to it as possible.
Some sort of a grain that's going to be complex and some sort of produce. So again it's nothing radical on that produce. So like let's say it's a post game salad or something. I'd want like an oil based dressing so that you're right, that digestion will take a little slower.
But if it's slower but also steady, that shouldn't be as disruptive to sleep. It would be more disruptive to sleep to have something.
So for example, just a pizza where we're going to have some fluctuating glucose that now disrupts some of your anabolic signaling and your sleep metrics. But if we have that pizza, I think pizza and wings, same thing. But if we have that pizza and you order it with a salad and you just have some of the salad.
So you have instead of four slices of pizza, maybe you have two slices of pizza, some salad and maybe then like a side of whatever the other side is that you'd like to have or you have that ready to go with your shake or something.
Now you've got a meal that's a bit more complex.
You got a little bit more time to relax after bed and it sort of allows, that allows you to like get ready for sleep.
[00:30:35] Speaker A: If you could lay out a perfect day for so say game day, what would that look like? So breakfast, lunch, dinner, in between meals, snacks.
[00:30:44] Speaker B: Is this pro or college?
[00:30:46] Speaker A: This is, let's go college, high school.
[00:30:48] Speaker B: Okay. College, high school. So it's not like a show and go. So we'll do college, we'll do college. Right now they're Getting ready for finals. Right. Or they're in finals and it's what, today's Wednesday, so we're getting ready for our series day. So let's say travels tomorrow.
Ideally you're packing some snacks for. I'm going to go with either travel or home series. But ideally you're packing something in your bag that you've got for anything. Like either it's for, for the game itself, like during innings or like while you're just getting ready to go, like some BP or something like that, but you've got some snacks in there. Snacks would ideally have at least one portion of protein, if not all protein, but at least one portion of protein and some other macronutrient to it. So a carb or fat. And then I also like to include like easy fresh things. So like clementine's, a banana, an apple. Those are your basics. But something that you want that. So I also advise, like, don't get something you think will be good, something that you actually will eat. But it's easy for you to pack and go. So have those in your bag.
Grapes are a little bit harder. They get smoked. Berries are a little bit harder. I'd keep those in the pack and you can grab those from your room or something. A little bit harder to transport.
Then day of game and they don't have class. Right. You're gonna pretend you're not class that day.
So you did all your homework and everything's up to speed. Because that also, you know, everything's perfect in this day.
I would sleep until you don't have to wake up. Like. Like, I don't even think I'd set an alarm unless you really need it. So if they wake up around like 10ish. 9. 10. Like college, right?
[00:32:28] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:32:29] Speaker B: Realistic 10.
Whatever their morning routine looks like. And getting a breakfast going. So I'd have that breakfast. Have like a good mix of a protein.
A complex. Is this player position player or pitcher? Play or pitcher?
[00:32:45] Speaker A: Either.
[00:32:46] Speaker B: Okay.
Okay. It's going to be a little bit different.
[00:32:49] Speaker A: Yeah. How's that vary? Because that's a great point. Like how would, how would you vary that between a pitcher and a position player?
[00:32:55] Speaker B: Their demands are so different. So a position player has both offensive defense that they're thinking of and they're just on the field a lot more. A pitcher has so much focus on them. So while they're still getting ready in the bullpen and they're still warming up, like your starter is so different than your closer. So it might just come into play for like when their pre game, like how heavy their pre game meal might be or like how heavy the meal day might be.
And also I feel like our starters, at least the ones that I've worked with the game energy comes into play a lot more. So I tend to do things that are a lot easier on the gut. Like a lot like a lot easier. Like a broth or something like that or something like something they know is like a feel good meal just because they, they're in a different mindset.
So depending on which position you're in at, adjust calories appropriately. So I might have, I might feel like I don't have to guide a position player as much on calories. Like they'll eat pretty comfortably where if it's a starting pitcher and they don't want to eat, then maybe like a smoothie for the morning where for a position player, someone who doesn't have that same consideration, they feel all right. Then I'd have like your normal complex breakfast. Please make sure you're adding something fresh. Something fresh means it will spoil if you don't eat it in a few days and it can be in or out of the fridge. Right. So yeah, it's going to spoil sometimes. I get that question too. Like, well, yes, fruit snacks are not actually fruit. Right.
[00:34:27] Speaker A: So what broth recommendations?
[00:34:32] Speaker B: It can be veggie or animal based, but some sort of bone broth or something that will have like collagen it. Something that'll have a little protein in it as opposed to like chicken stock. I'd add like a chicken bone broth. Something that have. It doesn't have a lot of protein in it but it has like just enough electrolytes that are really easy on the gut and then it has some calories to it.
I try to start really basic for those athletes that have challenges eating on game day and then we take it out from there. So it might be like a simple wrap that you eat or maybe it's like a bagel with peanut butter or a bagel with cream cheese or a bagel with some sort of sustainable fat.
I'm just such a big fan of berries or a smoothie that at least gets all of it in there, but it's just easier for them to eat and a lot more mindless for them to eat.
The broth is nice because if you have too many smoothies, you're probably going to be running to the bathroom where that's not the case with broth. It's got some electrolytes to keep you grounded and then you Might just add something to it. Like a wrap. Tends to be really nice. Like a wrap with some sort of protein in it or like a hummus and some sort of pretzel or veggie or something like that. But something that's like almost. Almost mindless to eat where they don't notice. I think where I'm coming from is that for those that get nervous to eat before game day, sitting down for a meal just allows you to kind of roll through things. So things that allow you to sort of like go on about your day but you are eating something.
[00:36:02] Speaker A: Love it.
[00:36:03] Speaker B: Yeah, we're like a player that doesn't think about that as much or doesn't have that same challenge or I feel like your position players tend to be a little bit more like they do. It's every day for them. Right. So they're like, okay, another day.
Something I do challenge the position players on, what is this? April for college season, your mid season. Somewhere around this time, try to add something that you haven't added before to increase your nutrient variety.
Depending on the nutrient variety that we try to bring, it just adds a little bit more nutrient density to the plate.
If it's a player that feels like if they're in a good spot, they're just in a bit of too routine for their nutrition, I challenge them with that.
And then if they've got to be on the field times our game seven, they're probably on the field around three. So lunch at like 1ish and have a regular lunch. A lot of them will do like a sandwich or some sort of like a sub or something on that end they tend to grab a sub or sandwich or a wrap with chips. I would also add on something fresh. So like keep on adding something fresh to it. So I don't quite care if you have the chips, but add something fresh and eat it.
Don't just bring it to the field, eat it at lunch. For your beverage, choose something lower calorie.
A lot of them at this point might start leaning on the caffeine.
I feel like if you're trying to make it through the game, you can have some caffeine at this point. But if we're doing caffeine for performance, I'd do it closer to the game.
[00:37:36] Speaker A: How close to game time would you recommend caffeine?
[00:37:39] Speaker B: Yeah, that depends on if they're starting, like when they're playing, but about 30 to 60 minutes before their on field
[00:37:46] Speaker A: performance because that's about how long it takes to kick in, right? About 30 minutes.
[00:37:49] Speaker B: And it'll peak in that like one to two hour range. So we're like three to four, about three, three milligrams per kilo. So it's typically like a cup of coffee or. I personally recommend staying away from the energy drinks, a bunch of them. If you're in a league that gets tested, which almost everybody is at this point, it's not unusual for it to flag on something and it might be even something that you don't notice could be on like too high. Vitamin B12 will flag you. So I personally recommend like we can do more affordable options than your energy drink. We do like a Diet Coke if you're really looking for the fizz. A Diet Coke with like a coffee or a Diet Coke with like a, like a stronger tea or something like that could get you further than.
It's not the same amount of caffeine that an energy drink would have, but it's a much more sustained release. If they're doing caffeine tablets then just making sure they're NSF and test it like whatever league you're in, you're working with the right person to make sure they're safe and appropriate and then you're dosing that correctly as well. And to get, you're getting the slow release caffeine because you can get a little tricky on that too.
[00:39:00] Speaker A: I take slow release caffeine.
[00:39:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Makes a big difference. It makes a huge difference.
[00:39:05] Speaker A: I don't like coffee because the come up and the come down, I don't, I don't enjoy. I want something that's, that's steady and then it tapers off so you don't
[00:39:13] Speaker B: feel, you don't crash.
Yeah, yeah. It's so different sometimes depending on when they're about to, they're about to play. Like if they're an athlete that might take a nap, a short nap before they play. Like right before their on field performance. Then typically we'll do like a caff nap. So take your caffeine nap.
[00:39:30] Speaker A: Nitro nap. Yeah, that's what army, army calls it, a nitro nap.
[00:39:35] Speaker B: Yeah, they work. You just have to, you just have to make sure the caffeine dose is a little bit on the lower end. If you get too high on that caffeine dose, you get a bit jittery. That's. So it's like defeats the purpose. A little bit lower on that one.
[00:39:47] Speaker A: Grapes in game.
What about end game stuff?
[00:39:51] Speaker B: Yeah, why not? So any type of fruit, I try to combine it with a fat or a protein source just so that It's a nice, steady digestion. So, like, grapes and nuts of some sort. Those work.
Grapes and a cheesesteak. If you've got, like, athletic trainer, sports med, or if they do have a dietitian that has, like, a cheese stick or something like that, you can also get the dried cheese.
I do, like, always make sure there aren't food allergies for any of your teammates or anything like that, especially if you guys are sharing bats or if you're touching any of the same things. So just make. You know, I can't. I have to say this part. Let's make sure everybody's all right with food allergies, because you want to keep your teammates and yourself safe. And if those start to come up and it can be hard to think of. I think dairy and nuts are such common things, but they're also some of the highest allergy considerations. That's where I bring in, like, different types of beans and legumes. So, like, you can get chickpeas, you can get hummus compared to a nut. It's a different fat source. One's like an Omega 6. It's a slightly different fat source, but in terms of calories, they're pretty similar. And if anything, if you eat too many nuts during a game, more than an ounce, you start to get some GI discomfort. You also start to feel nauseous. And it's really nondescript.
I think, like, 99% of the population don't connect that to nuts, but just a really high omega 6 intake, like, where it just doesn't digest as quickly.
But most baseball players lean on things like seeds, so sunflower seeds are the most common, but seeds have a lower allergy risk, so it's also pretty sweet. The challenge with sunflower seeds is that we just consume.
I think sodium is such an important sodium, right?
It is if you're the athlete who's just hanging out that day, and you're typically the one who's snacking. So.
And you're also. It also tends to be paired with, like, a Gatorade, like, everything that's needed for performance, but. But your performance that day is like your data or cheering on. So for athletes on that side, lean on your fruit and your veggies a little bit more and pair it with your sunflower seeds. Like, if you're having a bag of sunflower seeds a night, which is real, then let's. And I've been there. So there's so many flavors. They're so good.
They're so good.
Yeah. Especially for the Athletes that might be doing that instead of tobacco. Like now our conversation is going to get a little more detailed. But then again, just try to pair it. Just try to team them up, team them up with something else or like separate them out beforehand. Because if the whole bag is available to you, the whole bag is available to you.
[00:42:33] Speaker A: What are some of your tips to kind of maintain weight or even increase muscle mass in season? I mean, it's really hard in season,
[00:42:40] Speaker B: but, oh, it's so hard emphasizing your recovery. So first being at the player development stage where you've got a routine down so you've got your player schedule pretty locked in, I think that's step one and then step two is finding your recovery modalities that you're going to be pretty pretty well leaning on.
So we need those things foundational. And then your nutrition should be pretty structured as well. So we to finish that day like you've got your breakfast, whenever it is that you wake up, you do have some sort of a lunch or if you're not ready to eat food, we're getting calories in some way in the morning.
The morning is going to be your highest opportunity to get calories in because it's your least stressful demand.
The later you go on the day, the later we are getting into those combat nutrition or we just like I have a terminology that's like slipping my mind, but essentially you backend all your calories. If you're back ending all your calories, you're asking your body to deposit a lot of nutrients in 1.
Protein by design is intended to be consumed in chunks throughout the day. It's when you do best.
And I know that there's a lot of.
[00:43:52] Speaker A: I was going to ask about meal frequencies.
[00:43:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I think baseball is like a perfect example of try to break up your meals as much as you can earlier in the day. Because once it's like BB time and game time and post game time, it's like big chunks of food that you might be eating depending on where you're playing, or big gaps that you might have in food intake. So if you have a structure where you're consuming at least two to three and that could be a combination of meal and snacks, but at least two to three times where you're consuming food before you get to the field, that's a big help. And that's not even including anybody that might be lifting post game too. So if you consume like two or three things in the morning, two to four, depending on the athlete, two hours,
[00:44:39] Speaker A: you know, eat Two hours later.
Like what time should be. Yeah, like the. The time in between either meals or
[00:44:47] Speaker B: snacks to maintain weight. Typically we want like two to four hours in between. If you're looking to gain weight, then we really personalize it. Like it. It's a. It's an unfair answer for the podcast, but we do start to get a bit more detailed on, like, yeah, how can we be strategic about where we're putting the food in? And then we might be doing a few more considerations during like, game and post game time.
But in general, like two to three hours from the time you wake up till the time you get to the field is pretty good. But you have to make it count too.
So two to three hours with actually being able to sit down with a meal, not like eating a bag of pretzels. So have it be.
If we're thinking of athletes that are just starting to learn the ropes in this, consider that you add protein with something else also. Not just protein. Protein with something else. If you're not sure about why you have to eat something else with your bag of beef jerky, the best way to absorb those nutrients is typically with a micronutrient, often vitamin C. So if we can do that with something fresh, it goes well. A meal takes care of it. If it's a complete meal, a complete meal, you have all the food groups and you're representing something fresh or whole as part of that as well.
In each of those categories, if it's a snack, again, like the protein to carb or protein, fat tends to take care of that. And then once we get to the field, it's a little bit more sporadic at that point, I think consuming at each of your breaks. So we've got practice, we've got something going on before your game, then consume something, Then you've got game, then consume something. And then if you lift, then, because, you know, like after each break, consume something, you just adjust that meal depending on the time that you have between that activity ending and the next thing starting.
[00:46:37] Speaker A: How do you handle your athletes that maybe have not eaten well before they've shown up to you?
[00:46:42] Speaker B: Yeah, most.
[00:46:43] Speaker A: Because you're gonna. Well, I mean, you're gonna run into every demographic of human being on a college campus with athletes. How do you. How do you kind of nurse them through the beginning? Because if they've gotten used to eating in certain, like, certain types of food, it's hard to introduce new types of food to people that have never eaten healthy.
[00:47:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I think it's also fair that they're coming from so many different, like, cultural environments. Like, so we. There's a lot of skill set to eating. You have to make it. You have to have a budget.
You have to make a schedule.
You have to know how to.
To buy said food. Like, you have to know if the apple's good or not to purchase. Or onions can be really hard to buy. Potatoes, really hard to buy.
[00:47:25] Speaker A: Like, avocados.
For me, it's still a gu game. It's one of my favorite foods. It's still a guessing game. And so I open it up. Like, I don't know what it's going to look like in there.
[00:47:36] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I think it was. I think that's where the pro setting is really nice. We go out with our chefs, and they walk everybody through because it's a team to do it. But if you're on a college campus, you usually have a dining hall that you're part of. So having a, like, first set, I can't emphasize enough, like, for baseball, especially what your schedule is. Like, organize your schedule. And I literally have them write in time, when are you going to eat?
[00:48:03] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:48:04] Speaker B: And not just what are you going to eat? Like, do you have enough time to get to your dining hall and get back to whatever it is you need to do and eat? And they're like, oh, no. Like, okay, then what's close by? Or what do we need to pack to help with that?
I don't have a state where we're really lucky. We've got training table, and we've got fueling tables. And so there's many food resources.
And then campus in general has food resources for students that are in all sorts of situations. But that's not what it's been like at most other institutions that I've been at.
I think those are our conversations that teams need to have as well. How much can they invest to provide for their team? And what's that look like?
[00:48:47] Speaker A: All macronutrients are important, right?
And why has fat gotten a. A bad label?
[00:48:54] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a detailed question.
So if we have another eight to ten hours through it.
But it's like, the crux of so much of my doctorate work. But so there's a few different terminologies we can do for that. Like, yes, all of them are important in the terms that, like, why do we eat food to begin with? Like, one, it's, like, fuels the soul, but also literally heals the body.
So we have energy deposits in the body already made, and then we consume food to help support that. So that we can move and live and then we can go through what's essential versus non essential. From a nutrition standpoint, an essential nutrient means you have to consume it from the diet. The body doesn't make it. Non essential means the body makes it. But there's an asterisk. The body makes it as long as the other nutrients are supported. So essentially everything becomes really important.
And then from there different organ systems use different nutrients in different portions and capacities depending on what the physical demand is and the health status is. So then we've got layers on layers and layers in terms of nutrients being important.
Yes, because they all have a distinct role. But there are some that you start to feel the deficiency a lot sooner than others.
There's a couple of reasons for that. But the body can compensate.
You might be able to get away with not having a high amount of, let's say vitamin, vitamin E in the diet every day, but you're probably not going to get away with not having enough iron or vitamin B12 every day. Right. So there's like certain components. So you're probably not going to get away with having a low calorie diet over time. Like there's certain parts that it's not that it's one's more important than the other. It's like how well can your body compensate, compensate until the deficiency starts to override what it's able to be capable of.
And then knowing that a younger athlete, so 16, 18, 21, 25, your development is ramped up so your nutrient need is so much higher. So you will be eating differently than possibly your peers, but certainly your family and those around you. So you might also start to get a lot of comments like, oh, you got so much food on your plate or did you just eat? You know, I think there's some of these other social cues that start to affect or are you not eating enough? You know, there's all these comments that start to come effect to how you approach your plate. And then the other piece of importance or not is your recovery needs. Like in terms of energy during a baseball game, it's not particularly.
Your set baseline is if you're laying in bed during a baseball game, it's obviously higher than that, but the range of it is not astronomical. It's well within something we can care for. But baseball's recovery is so extensive, that's really where your calorie needs come into play. That doesn't mean that you're eating calories close to bed.
Caloric intake, much like protein, is a space style Approach, they do better with chunks of deposits as opposed to one large deposit.
But it's so vital to you being able to handle.
If we're talking college, like a college and summer season, you're not going to make it to the end of the season like you started if you're not depositing in that bank appropriately.
[00:52:14] Speaker A: And the injury risk goes way up every single time.
[00:52:18] Speaker B: I mean, there's already a high injury risk with baseball for the type of sport it is like the type of movement you're doing.
So many of these movements are trained at such a high skill level and then you add on top that those particular ligaments and muscles require you to support them just like they're supporting you during the game.
So, yeah, a bag of Doritos is just going to only take you so far, but that might be all you have access to post game. So what can you do outside of it? Like milk and chocolate milk are always there.
I'm thinking of like gas stations of, you know, where you're stopping on a road trip.
But you typically have some sort of a protein beverage if you're not drinking cow's milk, like soy milk, soy protein or soy chocolate milk is starting to become so much more present.
I know there's a lot of fears with soy consuming it for testosterone for its match, but the amount that you need to match it is so high.
I have looked at that quite extensively and I know that the researchers in that space obviously are experts in it, but I always question that too. And it's. It shouldn't interfere so you don't have to worry about that. And then you have a.
There's protein and fat and like grab something that you have to do a little bit of work to consume. So you have to peel it or you have to open it or you have to wash it. You have to do something and you should. That's like, I don't know, it's just these little like habits over time. Right.
[00:53:40] Speaker A: You mentioned bone broth for any broth for collagen. Do you have athletes that supplement with collagen or.
[00:53:49] Speaker B: Yes, actually. And so that isn't my area of expertise. But some of my closest colleagues, that's all they research asked them quite a bit like collagen really doesn't have much.
The research in collagen is like, you would need so much collagen and so much time for it to do the things that we often in day to day say that it does.
But on the flip side, it's still an amino acid, so it's still going to aid in your overall amino acid pool is not necessarily. Now for those that are listening that like aren't as much in the protein world, you have like essential and non essential and conditionally essential amino acids. Amino acids make up the full protein. So when we think of protein, there's a different combo of all these amino acids, there's 21 of them. So collagen technically is non essential. Like your body doesn't. Your body can make it. However, my argument to that is like I'm looking for high levels of collagen recovery. So any amino acid will support. We just also have to remember that that's not the only amino acid or only protein for us to ingest. We should also what's called like complete your protein. So the other side of it as well.
But I still find a lot of value in collagen. I think the challenge is that collagen is expensive if you buy it as a supplement.
But if you make a soup that's got like a nice thick collagen layer to it, even you can get gelatin and make jello for your athletes or anything. Bone on. If they consume animal proteins, like all of that contributes to collagen. That does not mean I'm saying like eat wings every night. Words get twisted. But it does mean like, yeah, if you're going to have some wings and some fries, get a salad with it. But have those wings be maybe like again as close to your original as, as, as you feel comfortable getting it too.
Because yeah, collagen is expensive, but you can get it in, in broth. It's the main protein source in a bone broth specifically. Not any type of broth, but bone broth.
It's not going to contribute to your overall recovery the way some of the other proteins will, but it does contribute to your overall protein. It's also a lower amount of protein, but it's something. Right. It's like for the days where it's needed kind of thing.
[00:56:01] Speaker A: What are your go to supplements then? What do you feel like every athlete should take?
I know, I know. Every person's different.
[00:56:08] Speaker B: Yeah. Age dependent on this one.
So for those that are in like middle school, high school, you can probably get a supplement that's food first. So like a beef jerky or, or a chomp or like some sort of beef steak or any type of jerky or if it's more plant based like your yogurts, you can get animal plants or anything in the spectrum of it. Just check that that protein, that yogurt Actually has protein in it. So we're looking at least for 10 grams or 8 to 10 grams or you can supplement with it on there. The older they are, the closer to 18. Like you start having a lot more flexibility with protein powders. Just make sure that as soon as it has so food either has a nutrition facts label, that means that it's just dietary, it's not going to be assessed for any type of test.
It falls under the fda. If it has a supplement label on it, automatically check if it's permissible for your athlete.
And then on the supplement facts label I want to make sure it's got a couple of components to it and that the ingredients, you don't have to recognize all the ingredients but they're most of the time. If it's NSF certified for sport or some sort of acknowledgment that it's been third party tested by the organizations within your league is like so many asterisks.
We don't have proprietary blends in there. That's where it's just a black box. It might be totally fine, but often it's not. And so no proprietary blends is like the rule that I've got for my athletes. And then some sort of protein supplement and some sort of creatine and some sort of like nutrient support.
So that I do come from the research world, I do come from the dietetics world. Ideally we have a physical that includes blood work. So do we need vitamin D, do we need iron, do we need B12? Tend to be the primary ones that come up. If we have an athlete that's really struggling on recovery, do we have an opportunity to dig deeper on objective markers and blood markers to find a deficiency that might be hindering? Those tend to be the main ones.
That is if they're consuming their diet really well. So are you also consuming seafood so we get our Omega 3s. Are you also consuming higher quality sources of food so that we're getting high vitamin A?
I can't help myself to be like, okay, well these supplements are going to be supportive, but where are you getting vitamin A from? Like where is that coming from? And that's such a key nutrient for recovery. We just don't chat about it.
[00:58:50] Speaker A: What are the best food sources for vitamin A?
[00:58:54] Speaker B: Often we think of anything orange, red, so bell peppers and carrots and things like that. From our produce side, grass fed organic beef is high vitamin A and then seafood will be high vitamin A. So anything like that's got a protein fat matrix and then Sweet potatoes have high beta carotene, so anything orange and red.
[00:59:17] Speaker A: I'm the poster child for creatine, by the way. And this one cracks Jimmy Onati up because I've been taking for 30 years straight.
I have not missed a day of creatine in 30 years.
[00:59:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I guess. Like, I was gonna ask if you notice anything, but it's. You've been on it so long, like, you can't.
[00:59:33] Speaker A: I think everyone should be on it. Yeah, I do. And men, women, I don't.
I mean, with the research, is there age, like, is there as far as shouldn't take it before a certain age or does it matter?
[00:59:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I wonder that constantly. I've got a toddler, I'm like, is it too soon? It's too soon for anyone listening. Okay. Too soon. She absolutely does not need it. Like, her kidneys don't need it. I think more than anything, what comes up is that all the testing that's been done has been done in. In an adult body. And so what's the right dosage? Is the question I always have. Like, what's the right dosage to make sure that their body can synthesize it, use it.
And all the outcomes and benefits we see match this appropriate dosing.
[01:00:20] Speaker A: Five. I take five a day.
[01:00:22] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the one. I just don't know if we have that for a smaller body or like a growing and developing body.
[01:00:30] Speaker A: I get blood work done every year. My blood work is perfect. Perfect. So, yeah, it's. I don't know. I'll keep doing what I'm doing.
[01:00:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was.
That's where I am with creatine as well. But now having like a little one myself, I do one. Like, I just think about it differently. Like, oh, there's the way her body would be able to handle an adult dose. Right. Like, that's bonkers.
But I don't know at what age that starts to flip. That's where I'd lean on like my creatine experts.
[01:00:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And I didn't start till I was like 19 or 20. So it's like.
[01:01:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:01:03] Speaker A: I started, I think.
[01:01:04] Speaker B: And development is so.
Is so specific. Like your 16 year old changes so much to an 18 year old. So I don't know where on that spectrum it starts to fit in.
[01:01:15] Speaker A: What about probiotics?
[01:01:17] Speaker B: Oh, so part of my PhD was like gut health. So I'm so big on.
[01:01:22] Speaker A: Well, and that's why you're talking about adding different, different foods into. For the gut biome. Right. It's.
[01:01:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it's a big piece of it.
Yes. I also try to remind the athletes that get really nervous before a game that like that their digestion is off. Like there's such a real and documented gut brain access that by the way
[01:01:40] Speaker A: you're supposed to get nervous. Like that's. Yeah, it's your body's generation to perform. Like that's a good, that's actually a good thing because you'll have a flat performance if you're not feeling those butterflies down there.
[01:01:52] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I think you're right. Like there's certainly a spectrum of it because if we're thinking a long season, like somewhere along the way things get really monotonous and you sort of lose like, like you can lose that piece of it. And having the adrenaline is part of keeping you sharp. But there's certainly some athletes where that adrenaline is like in override and they're just, they can't find that balance. Right. Or they need support for it.
So it's just such a real part of it. In terms of probiotics, another one that I've looked at quite extensively, it's so dependent on the company, the strain and how well you can preserve those str.
So where I start before we get to probiotics are fermented foods or like gut friendly foods, sauerkraut pickles if they've been fermented, resistant starches. So if you cook like a rice or pasta, put it in the fridge, consume it a couple hours of the next day, like those types of foods and then we've got our prebiotics, which again it goes back to your whole foods. So garlic bok choy, which I know most aren't, might not be getting that at the grocery store because you have to cook it up and all of that. But garlic, onions, scallions, like things like that are also really friendly. But I read a really cool study that if I see like many gastros refer to that. If you can consume at least 30 different variety types of fiber or fiber rich foods throughout the week, that's sort of like a good baseline to aim for. But that could be anything. That could be seasonings and herbs. That's any type of produce, anything fiber rich. So I think that part can be helpful too. To think maybe you're not counting to 30, but you just see, okay, if I cooked my chicken today with rosemary, maybe tomorrow I'll cook it with Italian seasoning or something like that. And maybe if I had a salad that had cucumbers today, Maybe tomorrow I add in an olive or I add in a beet or something like that. Just some intentional way to change it up.
[01:03:51] Speaker A: Love it it, Love it.
Now I'm sure you deal with kids that have, or athletes that have a hard time gaining weight.
I mean how. What are the tricks for them then too? Because I was a hard gainer. So yeah, I had to do a lot of crazy things to try to.
[01:04:08] Speaker B: Absolutely.
I first say be aware of your development. Like a 16 year old that has trouble gaining weight is also just 16.
So what I've emphasized, if anything I do, I've done more coaching education.
Obviously the athlete is like hungry to, to be in a stage of their life that maybe their body's not quite there yet for. But from a coaching perspective, that's where I've felt more pressure. They're like, okay, well this athlete needs to gain 20 pounds. And like when.
[01:04:41] Speaker A: Good luck.
[01:04:42] Speaker B: Yes, you wanted me to gain £20, you mean like in five years? Got it. Not a problem. Let's do this.
I think it's more important to understand that's where like understanding physiology and age and maturation is so important. Like they don't, they literally don't have the testosterone receptors to release. Even if they have a high level of testosterone, it only matters if it matches the receptor. They don't have the receptor in that muscle mass yet to do the things you're asking to do. And once they do, you're looking for high quality structure. You're not just looking for muscle mass. I think it's very real for us to discuss like where anabolic steroids fit into this range as well. It's the most commonly used and abused drug in athletics still to this day off of the water reports that just came out in I think December, but recently and like World Anti Doping Agency. And so where our athletes are on anabolic steroids, like for any of them,
[01:05:37] Speaker A: just because I know what they are, but just list off the, the health concerns with taking antibiotic steroids. Like just go through the laundry list of bad things that are going to happen.
[01:05:47] Speaker B: They can absolutely happen. I think the scary part is that they might not happen immediately. So you do see benefit and if you feel like, well I saw benefit and I can back off, you're one putting your whole playing career in jeopardy if you get caught for testing. But I think also just the fact that it stops your natural production. Like, like 16 at 18, at 21 even, like you are still in maturation, like you're still trying to find a way for your body to have your brain talk to your kidneys, talk to your muscle.
And anabolic steroids, when used in a clinical setting for health reasons, let's say like a oncology or cancer perspective or aging perspective, like that's very different than a 16, an 18 or 21 year old. You're also probably getting products that might not be tested, might be mixed with something else. Your dosing is off. Like, I'm not saying that we can.
I guess there's a lot of challenges even just with getting the agent itself. And then what's your goal? Like, okay, if you gain mass, because you will, it's going to work and it's going to be incredible and you won't have to change anything.
And it's incredible in the sense that like you're about to gain so much muscle mass without having to worry about lifting or eating or sleeping. Like it will happen. But when you do it in a biological sense, like we're supposed to, through aging appropriately, lifting and eating and recovering, you also increase the structures around it. So you increase bone density, you increase connective tissue and you increase the hormone signals needed to support, support it. So if you just get from point A to Z, your injury risk is in like just from an injury perspective because I, I don't know that you care as much about your heart and your.
[01:07:34] Speaker A: But I mean, look at professional wrestlers. That's where you always see it.
[01:07:37] Speaker B: Yeah, but, and that's like some of, so some of the challenge I see when an athlete has presented that they're like, okay, but they took them for decades. I'm just going to do this for a little bit of time and then I'll be fine. But understanding that your natural production is completely stopped and it is a drug, so you have like a, you have like a, what's it called, a detox period. Like you need to come off of that drug and then build back up. Like this doesn't happen in a month or two. These are like real, real differences. So if you're trying to improve performance and you're on an anabolic agent at some point you need to come off of it and start back up. Like, what are you going to do during that period of time? But frontal lobe is not developed and you're like, okay, but the here and now.
So ideally we educate coaches a lot more so they understand the expectations and like the athlete they're dealing with and really habit building. Because if we mess it up and let's say we can remove like the drug conversation because that's Like a whole nother field. But let's say they just try to eat as much as possible all the time. Like that's what one of our major league athletes were so helpful at sharing with the younger athletes. Like that habit carried me to now. And at some point you just gain a lot of weight and yes, mass equals gas, but like muscle mass equals gas. So we can put a little asterisk on that and they're like, I mean the major league players are awesome. Just that I didn't. My injury just started as this like nagging challenge over time and the next thing I knew I was just in a really poor spot. And so yeah, I think that's where understanding like the physiology behind it, what your expectations are for growth maturation, what your genetics are for that it's a big piece of it and know that it doesn't feel exciting but like lifting and eating and sleeping are.
They're just foundational.
[01:09:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it's just boring. Like if you're going to be great, it's boring. It's really boring. It can be day in, day out is going to be mundane and boring. But the great ones do it. Like that's a thing. The great ones buy into it.
[01:09:43] Speaker B: They buy in and there's highlights to the career. You just don't see the day to day or the setbacks they have. Like you're not seeing the full storybook. You just get to see all the flashy parts.
So I think that's hard to understand at that age. But, but coaching education and senior players are so valuable. My voice is very.
Not as exciting.
[01:10:06] Speaker A: What about things like magnesium or zinc do we need to supplement? Obviously, if you're getting enough through the food. But magnesium glycinate helps me a lot for sleep.
[01:10:15] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. I think age comes into play quite a bit on when to supplement magnesium. Zinc is a tricky one. You have to match that really well with copper. And nobody supplement, don't supplement. Oh my God, don't do that. But zinc and copper work in line. So when I see people supplementing with zinc for like immune support or something, I sort of take a step back. I'm like, we really should be assessing that there's some sort of biomarker because things can get haywired really quickly on the mineral side.
For magnesium in general, once it's an older athlete, I think it's a normal part of the routine. A youth athlete. I hesitate on throwing in magnesium just right away. And blood tests are really hard. It's intracellular, you don't really get it through blood.
So at that point it's like a team approach. Like, what else are they on? What else do they need?
And which. There's five to eight different types of magnesiums we tend to supplement with. Like, where are we going to place them?
So magnesium, I individualize minerals in general,
[01:11:16] Speaker A: they're just like really so individual dependent. Right.
[01:11:20] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. And if you like magnet, the minerals being inorganic, like if they're off balance and they're so complimentary to each other.
[01:11:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:11:30] Speaker B: So if we go up on one and we don't acknowledge what the its partner is, we can really start to mess with. With foundational homeostasis. I think also for mineral absorption, like you could be low or just. Or imbalanced or deficient.
But if gut health is off, then it's typically like gut health for us to address, not necessarily that nutrient. So it's a little bit more a dynamic how we go to assess it.
[01:12:01] Speaker A: So say you have someone with a gut health problem. Like, how do you go about rectifying gut health issues?
[01:12:09] Speaker B: Yeah, we're closely with their clinical team first and foremost. Like, if there's anything else that needs to be considered. So many, like I mentioned some food allergies, like if they've got eoe, if they got IBS or Crohn's, like, there are other clinical considerations.
So that would be a big piece of it.
And then some blood tests also, like, what are you deficient in? Sometimes those deficiencies can help signal if it's gut influence or gut relations.
And then from there we start to assess their food and then their modality of consuming that food. So if you are, let's say all these things shake out, you still can't quite figure out what's going on.
Are you eating really fast? You know, we go to like habits and meal approach.
Are you dealing with some sort of like mental health consideration that is impacting food digestion? So we started to tag onto, like the broader picture.
All of these have these answers of more testing, but it really is a disservice to tell someone to just have sauerkraut, for example, without identifying.
Is it that you are super stressed out and you're eating really fast and then you're going to play right away? We can fix that without having to do some other components.
And I've seen that make a big difference for an athlete.
[01:13:28] Speaker A: How are you training the athlete to slow down and chew more though? Like, what do you talk to on the educational piece with that? Like, hey, slow down, chew more A
[01:13:37] Speaker B: lot of vision, like imagery work and a lot of breath work comes into play. There's also some really good cues. Like, you should have saliva production before you start to eat. It triggers digestive enzymes. You know, it's sort of like a whole cascade. But our saliva gets triggered when we smell food. So see food or get excited about a meal. So that step, we talk about it in our class quite a bit. That is such an important step to eat. So if you're doing a bunch of stuff and then you eat, your stomach isn't quite ready to accept food the same way. So how do we, like, be more intentional with the steps leading up to food?
[01:14:13] Speaker A: Love it.
I used to take our guys through the raisin exercise.
It's good because it teaches them how to be slow. It takes, like, five minutes to eat one raisin, but it's more of a mindfulness training exercise or how to get in a flow state. But it does teach them, like, how to actually be mindful with their chewing. It's cool.
[01:14:32] Speaker B: Oh, I don't know that one.
[01:14:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, look it up. The script is cool. That would be something good for your class to just read off. Have them just give them a raisin and actually read off that script. It's really good for mindful eating purposes and teaching them how to actually slow down.
[01:14:46] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah.
[01:14:47] Speaker A: What about beta alanine? Is that what?
[01:14:51] Speaker B: Beta alanine. It works. It really does. It gives you the tingles. Not everybody, but it does work. You just have to time it.
[01:14:56] Speaker A: What's the timing for that?
[01:14:59] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. I need to open up my notes. We literally just covered this in our class a few weeks ago. Beta alanine.
[01:15:04] Speaker A: I'd like to take your class.
[01:15:08] Speaker B: We'll see the reviews if they liked it or not. They haven't finished their final yet, so we'll see. But I need to look back on the timing specifically because I don't want to misspeak. But there is a very specific timing to beta alanine and dose to beta alanine. If you go just below the dose for performance, you might still feel the effects, but you don't get the performance benefit. So it's sort of like a double negative. On the flip side, if you go too high, it's not very helpful. So there is a very specific prescription to it for those that it works. You do notice performance benefits.
It's just a matter of, like, how do we dose it appropriately? You can split your dose or you can take smaller dosages to make sure side effects are reduced as much as possible.
[01:15:57] Speaker A: Okay, cool.
And we talked about caffeine. But what's recommended? Like, daily dose caffeine, like, what's good? What's probably too much?
[01:16:07] Speaker B: Yeah, you know, it's funny, I don't work with it on a daily. I like, only know the performance numbers from a performance standpoint, about 3 milligrams per kilo. So it ends up being about like 80 to 120 milligrams of coffee or of caffeine, which is like a cup of one to two cups of coffee per day. If it's a normal cup of coffee, yeah. Like normal dosage, but about 80 to 120. As high as 300 milligrams for performance. But anything over that, I think starts to tip you. The research is like, I think to get popped for through any type of testing, it's pretty high at like 900 milligrams. You're feeling awful. Like, like, please don't get anywhere near those. But it's not difficult to do that with an energy drink. Depending on what you're doing.
[01:16:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, if you. If you drink three or four energy drinks throughout the day, like, you're. You're gonna be over that.
[01:17:00] Speaker B: And for some of them, one to two, like, depending on which one it is. So instead, like, really pay attention to. You can do the math pretty quickly. You can pay attention to which energy drink it is and just make sure the dosage that they. Sometimes they'll also present the dosage. Funny. Will say like one can, but five dosages. So make sure you do serving size as well with the caffeine amount. But they should have to report them in most cases.
[01:17:25] Speaker A: For any coaches or parents listening in, what. What would be a decent. Like, go to sports nutrition. Like, if not even just a manual or just something that they could pick up as a resource that would maybe help them for the layperson, for sure, there's this.
[01:17:43] Speaker B: It's not CPSDA anymore. Aspda. The American Sport Professional and College Association. That's where the sport dietitians go for resources. However, it's an open website. They have free resources that you could even hand out to your team. The resources are awesome. They're all infographics or like short reads on all sorts of topics, especially for baseball, like eating on the road, food safety. When you're on the road, if you're bringing food back from a restaurant or you're bringing food back into the hotel, or how do you store food correctly and all of that. I think that part's. So we didn't even get into food
[01:18:16] Speaker A: poisoning's a rough one.
[01:18:18] Speaker B: Oh, it's awesome.
[01:18:19] Speaker A: It happens. It happens with travel.
Yeah, it happens with travel.
[01:18:24] Speaker B: Miserable.
[01:18:25] Speaker A: Just. And you don't realize how easy it is to get food poisoning if you're not right.
[01:18:30] Speaker B: Yeah. So food safe. They've got resources on that. I mean it's just such a good one.
There's also, I think it's my sport dietitian or my sports RD is again from those of us in the field, but they have resources and webinars all the time. Like they do a really awesome job at community outreach and sport outreach. So that's another one that is trusted and is really good.
[01:18:55] Speaker A: Did you enjoy doing the hot stove at the convention?
[01:18:58] Speaker B: I loved it. Yeah. I thought it was awesome.
[01:18:59] Speaker A: I mean what would you know? Obviously you've been in our industry, but what did you think about that that night?
[01:19:06] Speaker B: I thought that there's just so many people there. It, it was a really great showing.
We had, I think we had really good questions from. So I work more in the college setting and then have more experience in the pro setting. But to hear from high school coaches is like I don't have as much experience in that. It's a different approach and mindset.
It's like I'm sure it's really fun. Like they're just so, they're so excited for their next step. They work so hard and so much development that you see. So I thought that part is just really cool to be with so many different coaches that care so deeply about their athletes and so it always brings together a good environment.
[01:19:49] Speaker A: Do you have a fail forward moment? Everybody's got to answer this one could be personally, professionally. I actually that class that Jimmy and I talked to yesterday, we went through our fail forward moments. Something you thought was going to set you back, but looking back now, it helped you move forward.
[01:20:02] Speaker B: Yes. Going for the rd. I got told by everybody not to do that from my professional, from like my mentors and my professors. They're like, you really just don't. I mean I literally just finished a high level PhD program from like the top program in the country, had offers on the table, quite competitive. I mean everything was set up for what is thought of for success. And I was like, I don't know, I'm just going to go back to school.
And it felt so nerve wracking.
But my family was, I mean my, you know, everybody around me was really supportive but my family and now husband were so eager for that step. So I think that was really helpful. Too.
But yeah, I thought the RD was going to be like a major setback, which is crazy to think about.
[01:20:55] Speaker A: The universe usually works out that way. I mean, you're a great example of continuing education too, and just layering on what you've done. And I think it's a great example of continuing to educate yourself and layering things on because obviously you're completely different now than 10 years ago, 15 years ago, just with the amount of experience you've had. It's unbelievable.
[01:21:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I'm still, I think people should know that, like, I'm still literally in the college classroom, both as an instructor but also as a student. Like, I still am taking classes and stuff. I. I don't know. The field changes so quickly and so much.
It's. You're doing a disservice to your athletes and especially to yourself to slow down. I mean, even just to see sport. I mean, I know we're past time. I actually have a student meeting that. I'm sorry, sorry about that.
I'll see you after this. But they're like the way sports science in my field, like sports science is changing so much. Even the definition of what it is, the job opportunities, where it's being placed.
I see the people that are coming into those positions, really young graduates, and they're crushing it. Like, this is awesome. But I don't think I'm that far out from graduation. I'm like a couple, like I'll age myself but like a decade or so from my highest degree. And I feel really behind, like I'm ready to be like their assistant type of thing. Like, they're coming out so prepared.
I feel like the field is really exciting right now for those of us on like the performance support side.
[01:22:21] Speaker A: Love it.
Last question. Where do you feel like it's going to go now? Like, I mean, obviously if you could look into the future, where do you feel like, like the nutrition, sports performance is going to go? Where, what's the next thing?
[01:22:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I hope, I mean, I have to say, like, I hope we get more women in the positions and we get more voices from that perspective or from those that are coming from other areas. I'm bilingual as well, so I didn't necessarily talk about that, but I'd encourage individual. Like baseball is bringing in athletes from so many different continents and cultures and worlds.
I also think that will be. I mean, it's baseball, so there's always going to be a data heaviness to it that's forward thinking from some other sports.
But I Do also hope that we have a data balance. Like, we have the right people translating what those numbers mean instead of having it be data decisions, just data incorporated. So I'm excited for that piece of it. It hasn't quite hit the data overdrive yet, but at least from the areas that I work in, I could see that. I could see that being possible.
[01:23:23] Speaker A: Yeah. But for you, the data does tell a story. Like, you can take the data, what you're using in the lab, and you're finding research, and you can tell a really good story through nutrition and sports performance with it.
[01:23:35] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. But you have to know how to interpret that, so you need to be. So I think that's. Maybe that's the crux of it. Have people that are trained to interpret that information, because I do see, like, funky interpretation. I think body comp, again, could be, like, an easy theme, like, do you know what intracellular water means? And extracellular water are you making like that's a really foundational component. If you don't know, let's not make decisions off that body comp, then.
[01:24:02] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. Cool. All right, well, get back to the real world here. I appreciate you taking the time.
Thank you so much. Yeah, it was always good to connect with you, but I appreciate it. Thanks, Bill.
[01:24:12] Speaker B: Thank you. Have a nice day.
[01:24:15] Speaker A: These types of episodes get me excited because I know I'm going to pick up some things personally to add to my own routines.
I do credit my own nutrition as something that I feel like has helped my own longevity, something that we try to get our athletes to buy into every year to help them on and off the field.
Thanks to Dr. Sams for jumping on with me.
Best of luck to her as she finishes her semester.
Thanks again to John Litchfield, Zach Hale, Matt Weston, the ABC office. For other hope on the podcast, feel free to reach out to me via email or brownleebca.org Twitter, Instagram or TikTok, coachboca or direct message me via the MyBCA app. This is Ryan Brownlee signing off with the American Baseball Coaches Association. Thanks and leave it better for those behind
[01:25:00] Speaker B: the world keeps on turning and your life is not for your name and you know that way Yep Wait
[01:25:12] Speaker A: for another day
[01:25:17] Speaker B: and the world will
[01:25:19] Speaker A: always return as your life before your
[01:25:25] Speaker B: name and you know that place
[01:25:32] Speaker A: Wait for another day.
