Mike Birkbeck - Associate Head Coach, Kent State University

[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the ABCA's podcast. I'm your host Ryan Brownlee. A unicorn in every sense of the word. Rolling's new limited Edition Icon Electric Yukorn Bbcor Bats performance is fully charged and will leave the competition mystified. Its seamless two piece carbon construction maximizes barrel size while maintaining optimal stiffness and increased trampoline. With a balanced swing weight and slight end load, the Unicorn is best for athletes seeking speed through the zone. Electrify your swing with the all new Rawlings Icon Electric Unicorn Bat. Happy hitting. This episode is sponsored by Netting Pros. Netting Professionals are improving programs one facility at a time. Netting Professionals specializes in the design, fabrication and installation of custom netting for backstops, batting cages, dugouts, BP screens and ball carts. They also design and install digital graphic, wall padding, windscreen turf, turf protectors, dugout benches, dugout cubbies and more. Netting Professionals is an official partner of the ABCA and continues to provide quality products and services to many high school, college and professional fields, facilities and stadiums throughout the country. Netting Professionals are improving programs one facility at a time. Contact them today at 62707 or infoettingpros.com, visit them online at www.nettingpros.com or check out Netting Pros on Twitter, Instagram, Facebook and LinkedIn for all their latest products and projects. Make sure to let CEO Will Minor know that the ABCA sent you. Now onto the podcast. Mike Birkbeck has been the Associate Head Coach at Kent State University since 2004. Prior to coming to Kent State, Birkbeck spent 14 seasons playing professionally. His last 10 seasons were spent at the Triple A or Major League level. Highly regarded as one of the best pitching coaches at the Division 1 level, Birkbeck has led the Flashes to 10 Mac regular season titles, 10 Mac tournament crowns and 10 NCAA regional appearances. Birkbeck has worked with 53 student athletes who've been drafted or signed professional contracts, including Andrew Chaffin and Eric Lauer. Get ready because it's a phenomenal episode on pitching development. Welcome Mike Burk back to the podcast. I hear Mike Burk back Associate Head Coach at Kent State since 2004. 14 years played professionally, has worked with 53 players, been drafted or signed professionally at Kent now. So Berkey, we go way back, so thanks for jumping on with me. I've been excited about this for a while. [00:03:06] Speaker B: Yeah man, it's. It's awesome to be on with you and like I'm living a dream. This is the second time this month I've seen you. [00:03:14] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great thing about baseball. I. If you were going to start from scratch with a pitcher, where would you start? [00:03:24] Speaker B: Fastball command. I would start with fastball command and then go to some form of a change up and then be able to rotate the ball. [00:03:35] Speaker A: Do you have any. Do you have any pitching absolutes? [00:03:39] Speaker B: Fastball command? Absolutely. Yep. Good balance, good timing, good direction, and we go from there. [00:03:46] Speaker A: Do you weed that out in the recruiting process or can you fix that through development? [00:03:50] Speaker B: If it. Well, what I've learned, Ryan, is, you know, if it's a lower half issue, we can probably work with it. You know, arm path, stuff like that. I'm a little more sensitive to that. But yeah, a lot of things can be fixed. It's just that the throwing mechanism is, you know, complicated. You know, I try to stay away. [00:04:13] Speaker A: From that because there's a lot of ingrained patterns with the. With a throwing arm. [00:04:17] Speaker B: Yeah, no doubt. And they. But, you know, it's fascinating. All these years now it seems like they have the ability to re. Pattern that over time and, you know, with the balls and whatnot. It's just at the college level, you know, we just don't have all that time. We've got a limited amount of time, you know, either daily, weekly, and then certainly with regards to a career, well, I don't know, maybe they'll have five or six or seven years moving forward. [00:04:49] Speaker A: I'm not sure because there's always that risk of injury, too, when you start to tweak a little bit with the arm action. [00:04:55] Speaker B: There's no question, no question. You got to be. You got to be cautious with that. It takes time. It takes time. [00:05:02] Speaker A: When you say lower half, what makes you think so? Okay, hey, their arm works great. What are some things that you feel like you can clean up with the lower half to get them to throw strikes? [00:05:13] Speaker B: You know, if they're across their body or if they're flying open or if they're not really using that back legs for some leverage and sitting on it a little bit. Those things you can generally clean up I found over time. But, you know, it's really hard sometimes to find that. That perfect delivery. And if it is, you're in competition with probably 250 other schools. So, you know, you just kind of identify what you're comfortable with and that's, you know, there's 3, 298 other pitching coaches and whatnot around the country, and you just find out what you're comfortable with, what has worked in the past, what your experience has been with Trying to, trying to fix a couple things here and there and then you, and then you just go. [00:05:56] Speaker A: With the roster cap coming in. Do you think we'll see more dual pitcher position players? [00:06:04] Speaker B: We're trying, we're trying and I would assume that would probably be the case. And you know, it's going to be interesting for sure because we have some, we have a couple kids on our team right now that were dual in high school and we've kind of weaned them off one or the other just so we're not overloaded, you know what I mean? So they can kind of get settled in at one thing because they, they are contributing. So. But we're always on the, on the lookout and certainly moving forward. I think you're going to have to be. [00:06:34] Speaker A: And this is more towards the high school coaches because we get a lot of questions on that from coaches on how to handle workload and I had a few along the way and I have a workload management Excel spreadsheet that I kept for our dual players. But how would you go about that, handling their workload if they were going to be a guy that, that is going to pitch and play a position, how would you handle their workload? [00:06:57] Speaker B: Well, I sort of went through that when I was in college. I was, you know, a position player in high school and then I transitioned to college. I was a two way guy and in my case I moved first base, I got off a straight up position, I moved to first base and you know, we did that with a legendary kid here by the name of John Van Benchkoten. If you remember back in the early 2000s. I mean he was a terrific athlete, could have played anywhere on the field, but he was, you know, he was a big time arm, big time reliever and we moved into first base. But to your general point, I mean just manage the throws in between, in between games, in between innings, you know, in practice you just regulate that workload of throws so that they're not if they're. A lot of times it seems like the two way guys are shortstops, you know, in practice, easy on the cuts relays, take it easy on the double play throws. Guess would be my general advice. And then you just got to really monitor too then how much you're using them on the mound and making sure they're getting appropriate rest. With regards to that. [00:08:03] Speaker A: Yeah. My question to the coaches that ask is always where are they more important for you? Are they more important as a position player? Are they more important as a pitcher? If they're A starter, it's way different than if they're a reliever. You know, there's a lot of variables that go into that dual person because of the. It's specific, it's case by case basis on, you know, how important they are defensively or on the mound and then what's their role on the mound as far as starter and reliever? I think for starters you can probably script that out a little bit easier for guys on limiting their throws and the relievers, it probably just depends on when they're in games and when they're not. But I think the hard part with the relievers is they don't get as much time off the mound. So they're maybe not as sharp, but you're also not going to extend their innings either. [00:08:53] Speaker B: Right. They're going to be dragsters. They're going to come in and get you out of a situation probably and you're going to limit their outs. And I get that, but I think what you just said is an excellent point. You have to identify your own guys and where exactly they profile in your individual situation, for sure. [00:09:10] Speaker A: Is the 20 round draft good for baseball? [00:09:15] Speaker B: Is it good for baseball? I don't think it's very good for the players, but it's challenging for sure. I mean, that's obvious. So I would, you know, I would. Man, I. It's tough on the players. Limits those up. I mean, it's obvious it limits opportunities and, and man, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta produce. You really do. [00:09:43] Speaker A: What round were you drafted in? [00:09:47] Speaker B: My junior year I was drafted in the 11th round, but I fell late because I had a back injury that really hampered my last month of the season. And then my senior year I was. [00:09:58] Speaker A: A fourth rounder, so it wouldn't have mattered. 20 rounds you would get taken anyway. [00:10:07] Speaker B: It didn't matter either way, right? [00:10:09] Speaker A: How'd you hurt your back? [00:10:12] Speaker B: I was a two way guy and I was on deck getting ready to hit. Back in the day we used to swing those big heavy lead pipes and I took a, I just took a below the waist, you know, practice swing and something in my back did not like it and I guess it was the SI joint got jacked up and you know, I just kept playing. But obviously especially on the mound, it was really hard to rotate and I fell in the draft and decided to go back to college because I enjoyed college for sure and went to a chiropractor for probably a month and a half over the summer and got it all figured out. Never really had a problem after that. But things happen for a reason, Ryan. We know that. [00:10:59] Speaker A: Do you take muscle relaxers, too? [00:11:03] Speaker B: I think I did back then as a part of the. As a part of the rehab. [00:11:07] Speaker A: Now that was the only. I was lucky. I only got injured one time in Legion ball. I slid and jammed the upper part of my back and I was going to the chiropractor, but it would not calm down and. And luckily they prescribed me muscle relaxers too. And that was the only thing that got that area, the rhomboid area to calm down was getting readjusted, but also the muscle relaxers piece because it did not want to calm down. [00:11:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't even know because mine was more the SI joint and it was. It clicked that nerve just enough to cause some problems. So I don't know, I think just opening up the, in my case, SI joint, but I do think muscle relaxers were a part of it. [00:11:49] Speaker A: You're lucky you didn't bang your arm up, though. I mean, still throwing through that back injury, like guys trying to gut that out. But back in the old days, like, you didn't have any options. Like you had to take the ball. You had to go out there and. And do it because there weren't. You didn't have a ton of players. [00:12:06] Speaker B: Yeah, you're right. It was only, I think it was like the last three weeks of the season. So you just, you just did what you had to do back then, make the best of it. [00:12:15] Speaker A: How'd you know it was time to quit playing? [00:12:19] Speaker B: When I started to see the numbers on my outfielders back, I saw quite a bit there at the end. And really, what really precipitated it was a. I got hit with a line drive and broke my. Broke my right leg, my fibula. And at the age that I got hurt, which was, you know, I was 34 years old and I was playing in Japan, it really. It took a while to come back. And when I tried to come back, it wasn't. It wasn't. It wasn't pretty. And, you know, I never really wanted to stop playing, to be honest with you. I just stopped wanting to prepare to play. I still want to play. I just, you know, I just didn't. I wasn't willing to put in the time to do what I had to do at that point in my career to be properly prepared to help the team win and, you know, to further my career. [00:13:12] Speaker A: Did you know you were going to go back to the college side once you were done playing? [00:13:18] Speaker B: No idea, Brian. I wasn't sure what I was going to do. I had a couple opportunities to go out and coach in pro ball, but the thought of riding on buses again and not being able to play just wasn't very appealing. And then just. I'm telling you what, man, it was a miracle. Right out of the blue. Rick Rembelak, good friend of mine, gave me a jingle in January of 97 and said, hey, Dick Schoonover. And we all know Scoony, Scooney's a legend. Loved the man to death. Was leaving the coaching and going into the private instructing arena. And he said, hey, I would you think about it? And I said, we can talk about it. And I did it for a year and loved it. I just absolutely loved. I loved the passion, the college game, that crew, that group of kids was awesome. And man, it's just. It's just been. It's been a blessing. It really has. But no, I. I really didn't have any. That I was going to get into the college game again. [00:14:22] Speaker A: With your personality and your ability to connect with human beings like you're meant to be on the college side. [00:14:29] Speaker B: Well, I really appreciate that. I really do. And I don't know how they worked out on the pro side. I really don't. I just know I didn't want to write buses. I didn't want to write 40 reports every night. [00:14:43] Speaker A: How early does that relationship start with you in the recruiting process? Because that's probably where you get them, right? Is in the recruiting process, right? [00:14:51] Speaker B: It starts first phone call, first contact. It has to. I mean, we've always been here at Kent State, you know, a developmental program and a relationship program. And the sooner you can start that relationship and start to build that history with them, it only benefits you in the long run. And again now, especially now because of the situation with the portal and everything, and then we've had some transfers in the past. And it directly relates back to the initial recruiting process where they feel comfortable with you. For whatever reason they chose to go somewhere else, but they always felt good about you with regards to the next step. [00:15:34] Speaker A: What does your initial phone call sound like? [00:15:39] Speaker B: Huh? Well, I just basically introduce yourself. You introduced the program. You get the groundwork laid for what they're looking for as far as playing major, making sure that lines up, and we just go from. We just go from there. It's not a heavy sell right out of the gate. It's more of an introductory and judging and seeing if they can communicate. Big thing, you know, if it's a yes, no kind of, then you set up how you're going to approach them moving forward and stop asking yes, no questions and you just try to get the connection started. [00:16:17] Speaker A: Do you get feel now? That was hard for me at the end because kids weren't. Didn't communicate as well, but also were not good at telling you no. And I think that was the hard part for me because I was like, I'm going to keep calling you, like whether you want to. If you're going to come, let's get going here. But I'm going to keep calling you and if. Let's save each other time here. If you're not really interested and you're just kind of leading me along here, then tell me no, because I got thick skin. I've been told no a lot over the years, but I think that was the hard part for me at the end because I was going to keep calling kids and it didn't matter if they told me their top school was Vanderbilt. I was still going to keep calling the kid. Because you just never knew. [00:16:59] Speaker B: You never knew. And I do tell them early on in the, in the recruiting process, just understand that no is a natural part of this process. You're going to, you're going to have to tell no. No help you and no help me and I make it more personal. No is going to help both of us because you're not going to hear from me and I can move on to my, my next target. But just understand, no is a natural part of this process and we just all have to agree with that because there might come a point in time where I have to tell you, no. Yeah, somebody else. And it's, it's been, it's been really. It's been really good. Even now, I mean, you know, obviously we're talking to younger and younger kids where we were, but it's all, it's all still good. They're all still kids. They all have dreams and they all have desires. And, you know, all I tell them is we're trying to match all that up with what we have to offer and what you want. [00:17:52] Speaker A: Yep, definitely. Do elite pitchers want to be coached? [00:17:57] Speaker B: I think they do. I think they do. I think they're curious. But we, we can bet that too on the recruiting process, because a lot of the really good pens. There's a couple guys that are sitting behind me on that wall. They wanted to be coached because they wanted to be great. I tell kids all the time, I don't need you great right now. I need you to want to be great. That'll help everybody because it's a natural. It's coaching. Coaching is, you know, seeing and telling you're doing and feeling, you know, we have to communicate. And if. If there's something that I see, I have to communicate it to you. If there's something you're feeling, you have to communicate it to me. And big time pitchers like, you know, Eric and Andrew just most recently, they. They thrived on that. They wanted more. [00:18:51] Speaker A: You're crushing me with the Manny Burris jersey, by the way. I had him. He was coming to James Madison until I got his transcript. I worked my butt off on Manny Burris. Manny, if you're listening, I. I worked my tail off on you. And then when I got his transcript, I was like, no. But he. He landed where he was supposed to land. Great kid, great family. DC kid. I loved my. My conversations with Manny on the phone are awesome, but you're killing me with that right now. [00:19:21] Speaker B: He was special. You need to blame Jeff Wagner for that. [00:19:24] Speaker A: I know. Did a good job on Jeff. You did a phenomenal job on Manny Burris. He did a tremendous job. [00:19:31] Speaker B: That connection started when WAGS was at GW and just continued here. Man, I'm glad it worked out. [00:19:37] Speaker A: Yes. [00:19:38] Speaker B: Yeah. Sorry, Ryan. [00:19:39] Speaker A: Hey, with Lauer, I mean, was he like that as soon as he stepped on campus? [00:19:44] Speaker B: Yep. He was a sponge, man. He was a sponge. You know, extremely talented. I mean, talented SEC talented for the most part. I mean, you know, he was committed. Whatnot that we just really honed in on taking that talent and making it a skill. Making it a skill. And he worked his tail off and, and, you know, just really proud of everything he's been able to accomplish moving forward. [00:20:10] Speaker A: You do a good job of getting freshmen ready. What's that look like in the fall to get them prepared for the spring? [00:20:17] Speaker B: Well, you know, again, that's a lot of. That's to do in the recruiting process. I mean, you, you know, you just find things that you're. You're really, really comfortable with. And then when they get on campus, you just start day one. And I will tell you something, I'll share this with you because it's a conversation I have with the young kids right out of the gate when they get on campus is, you know, we're on left field. Our pitchers, we train a lot in left field. And so on campus, I tell. When they get on campus that first meeting, I tell them, hey, listen, I just want you to understand, please, the most important piece of technology on this campus is. And then I point to the scoreboard. Scoreboard's out right center. I said, that is the most important piece of technology on this campus. We got all the other stuff. We got yakatech, we got playside, we got rep. So we got everything. But that scoreboard needs to look right. Let's just get on the same. On the same page right here. And then I also tell them, I said, listen, you spent a lot of years, especially now, a lot of your formative years trying to throw that baseball as hard as you can. I said, well, I'm gonna. I'm gonna try to see how slow you can throw it. We're gonna spend a lot of time on slowing that puppy down and getting a. Getting a big time change up. [00:21:36] Speaker A: Is it easier or harder to coach pitchers now? [00:21:40] Speaker B: I. I think I. [00:21:41] Speaker A: Or has it changed? [00:21:44] Speaker B: It's changed only in the sense that they've got a lot of. They've got a lot of networking. They probably. We had before, you know, facilities and, and trainers and this and that, but when they get on campus, I, you know, I just ask the police to know. Those guys aren't here right now. [00:22:04] Speaker A: Yes. It's me and you, and we talked about that in the bullpen at ecu. It's. Yeah, you know, it's fine to have your, Your individual coaches, but the person that you're spending the most time with now is the one that's your college coach. [00:22:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:22:18] Speaker A: He's the one that sees you every day now. He also sees you in practice, he sees you in inner squads. He sees your struggles of what you're going through to try to get guys out. You're the set of eyes that sees them every day. [00:22:31] Speaker B: And that guy has a boss. [00:22:33] Speaker A: Yes, for sure. [00:22:36] Speaker B: In every field I go to, that scoreboard's gonna be sitting right there. Yes. So. But no, I mean, yes, it's changed, obviously, but still, it's coaching. You know what I mean? These kids all want to get better. They all want to get better. And sometimes you have to limit the noise as best as you can, but then that comes down to trust and the relationship that you have with them that you've built through the recruiting process. And then you get on campus. I told you, I say it all the time. We spend a lot of time with these guys. We try to get 20 hours a week with these guys. It's not like they just show up and you hand them a piece of paper and say, here's what you're going to do. It's, it's. It's personal and it's it's. [00:23:21] Speaker A: You're in the together with the Akrotech and Rapsoda. What metrics do you like? [00:23:27] Speaker B: Oh, man, I tell you, you know, inverted is horizontal spin rates. And it's funny because I was just thinking about this on the way up. In 2018, we had a kid here by the name of Joey Murray. 88 to 90 mile an hour, right hander, struck everybody out, struck everybody out. And you know, scouts were fascinated by it. They were talking, they asked me, I said, hey listen, this is all I know. When I get in the batter's box and he's throwing a bullpen, the ball's invisible. I don't know, I don't know anything else to tell you. The ball's invisible. And you know, then he gets drafted and now all of a sudden, two or three years later, they can put the metrics on his fastball. And Yeah, I had 2800 spin rate. Yep, it's elite. Still 88 to 92. Then at that point to strike everybody out. But yeah, spin rate, I get that inverted vertical break, you know, then you get the VAA vertical attack angle and stuff like that. [00:24:30] Speaker A: Does it help with tunneling their pitches too? Does it help with, with them figuring out release point on all their pitches and tunneling? I thought that was the benefit of all of it was them being able to tighten up their release point on all of their pitches to tunnel a little better. [00:24:46] Speaker B: 100%. And that's something that we really pay a lot of attention to. And, and we've got a kid on our team, a young guy right now. It's going to be a dude here next year, next couple years, if he stays healthy. That's one thing. You know, in his change up it's very apparent that it's six inches lower, blah, blah, blah. So yeah, that really has helped quite a bit as an old time coach and there's a lot of old time coaches out there. You know what has helped with is because what you see with your eyes and you know, now you can actually show them, which is huge for their development. It doesn't really change what, what I see or what I suggest, but it really puts it in, in a form that they can quickly understand. And kids nowadays, they, they like to see things. And I'm, I'm cool with that. I'm good with it. It's helped a lot for sure. [00:25:42] Speaker A: Where do you start with the change up? Because a lot of the guys you get maybe don't throw one or shouldn't throw one because they're it's going to be in the hitters bat speed. And I seriously, I mean that's why you don't see a lot of kids throw change ups. If they have a good fastball, their change up is going to be in the most bat speed for the lower levels, which is why they don't throw it because it's going to get hit. So where do with the change up. [00:26:04] Speaker B: With guys play catch. Play catch when they're warming up playing catch. And then here's the thing, there's a thousand changeup grips. You know, I played in, I don't remember how many organizations and everybody had a standard changeup. Atlanta Braves had the circle change up. Mets had this and that. We just try to find, we play with grips, play with grips. You do it playing catch, we long toss with it because it is, it's a trust thing and you got power arms. They don't necessarily trust throwing it slow. So we just long toss, we play catch with it, we do short box drills with it. But we really try to find a grip that can kill the 12 to 15 or whatever without, you know, slowing down the arm speed, obviously all those general things that you talk about. But it starts playing catch with us. [00:26:54] Speaker A: I stole, I stole that from Nate Yeski too. I really like the 65 to 70 foot bullpen with the change up where they're throwing it past the plate to try to get feel and be more aggressive with their, with their arm speed on their change up. I stole that shout out to Nate. That was a great, I think it was Anaheim in 2015 or 16. He, he presented on that and it was really good. He was at Oregon State at the time. Still very, very good, 100%. We tried to keep the dominant finger, we tried to keep the middle finger on there. Wherever their fast, dominant fastball was, if it was a two seam or four seam, we tried to keep their middle finger close to where it was comfortable for them and then just manipulate the other fingers around that. There's a million different ways to do it, but felt like because they throw they, they've thrown their fastball a million times over their lifetime. We tried to keep their middle finger similar just to help them create some feel on that. [00:27:52] Speaker B: Exactly. And we spend a lot of time, your thumb, you know, you can your thumbs like the rudder on a boat. Man, you start moving that thing around or pressing a little bit or pulling off a little bit, it ball's gonna act a little bit different. So it's, it's a, it's an art that has to be worked on and rarely does it happen overnight. And that's the one thing you have to keep being persistent about is it's going to come. It's going to come. [00:28:20] Speaker A: When do you know when guys get start to slide? If it's a mental issue that you've got to tweak their mental or if it's a mechanical issue that you, that you need to tweak. [00:28:32] Speaker B: And what, what Exactly. [00:28:34] Speaker A: So say guys start to slide in their performance. When do you go to the mechanic side of it? Or is it just a mentality switch that needs to be tweaked? [00:28:47] Speaker B: Well, we, first of all, it's just evaluating with what you're saying and then communicating, talking to them. Make sure there's not, you know, an owie in there or something. I pay very close attention to body language and their face. Their face will tell a lot of stuff and then their body language too. And we start to address that with regards to what is causing this. Go back to the, to the, to the base root cause of it and move forward from there. And it can be, it can be any number of things. [00:29:23] Speaker A: Because body language is a big part of winning the one on one battle with the hitter, correct? [00:29:28] Speaker B: No doubt, no doubt. It's called presence. You know, we start with presence and then you throw the pitch, then there's that result and then it goes to the body language. And we're trying to always clean all that stuff up and stay consistent in that and always moving forward. You know, sometimes with the younger pitcher, the last pitch will affect the next pitch. You've lived it. We've all lived it. All those coaches have been around a while. You got to really, I talk about you got to turn the page, man. You just turn the page page by page by page. And obviously that's easier said than done. But that's why freshmen become sophomores and they become juniors and then hopefully by that point in time, they're the dudes. [00:30:10] Speaker A: How did Lauer release? How did he get on in the next pitch? So Lauer, I mean, he, I think is he in the top three you've ever coached? [00:30:22] Speaker B: I would say comfortably. [00:30:25] Speaker A: How is he able to stay pitch to pitch? I think that's the, the mentality that separates the elite players from the ones that aren't elite is they're able to separate pitch to pitch and flush the last pitch and get on to the next good or bad. I mean there's going to be pluses and minus on every pitch that's thrown. How are the elite ones You've, you've coached able to get onto that next one better than the other ones. [00:30:48] Speaker B: Because they, they're able to use the last pitch to affect the next pitch. Let's say you miss high and arm side with a fastball. Well, he's going to use that. He's going to, he's able to, okay, I'm going to spin something now or I'm going to throw a change up. They use the result of the last pitch to their favor. They don't let it gum up their minds where they're thinking about what just went wrong. Okay, how can I use that? And I tell these guys all the time, nobody knows what your intent was unless you do something with your body to let them know. I had no interest in doing that. You know, if you hit, if you throw the ball off the press box and you put your head down, you start kicking the ground, everybody knows, well, he didn't mean to do that. If you get that ball back and you stare at that hitter, he has no idea what's going through your mind. And you can use that pitch. And it's again, it goes back to the gamesmanship, a little bit of it. And Lauer had the ability over time to, you know, when he first got here, he was a high pitched, count guy. I mean, we had a hard time. Not a hard time because he was really good, but getting him, you know, through the fifth inning without 100 pitches. But as he started, okay, I can use what I just did, his pitch. Now he's out there eight, nine innings instead of five or five and you know, a third. [00:32:10] Speaker A: Hey, you just made a great point because I don't think enough people talk about that. You don't hear it as much anymore. You know, you mentioned the arm side, high fastball and then throwing a breaking ball to maybe get their release point out front. Talk about that a little bit because I don't. You don't hear that as much anymore. That's an old school mentality with pitch calling from catchers and pitching coaches that that next pitch that you can throw can get them out of where they were at and get them back going. [00:32:35] Speaker B: 100%. And it just allows you to utilize what just happened in addition to getting maybe your release point back out front where it needs to be. But that takes again, that's where it takes time. And you know, as a coach right now, that's, you have to. I try to be really patient because it's easy just to get off and try something new. But the resources that we Have. I mean, I tell these guys all the time, we don't have a minor league. You're my 18, man. This is what we're going with. And we're going to try to get the most out of you as we possibly can. I don't. I can't go to the club team, but, yes, you're exactly right. Every pitch can be utilized to your advantage, and they. They can be awful pitches, but in the right mindset, you still get outside 100%. No question. No question. [00:33:31] Speaker A: Ryan, when do you know it's time to add a pitch to somebody's arsenal? [00:33:36] Speaker B: Well, when they, you know, either there's a struggle going on or they physically develop to the point where you're comfortable with it. We had a kid my first year here, on my first pitching staff. He was. His name was Matt Greer. Pitched 10 years. The big leagues long. Lanky man. He was, you know, 6 foot 2, 165 pounds or 175 pounds. And we waited, and it was a large part, you know, Beelzy, Coach Beals down there at Marshall. You know, we waited till his junior year to introduce the slider because we just felt like it was in his best interest. You know, you didn't want to have him ripping off 50 sliders when he was that, you know, lanky and whatnot. So, yeah, there's a couple factors that if they're not doing well, once they get more physical and you feel like they've dominated the other two pitches, maybe got fastball command, and you got a plus plus breaking ball, let's get the changeup kicked in. Or vice versa. [00:34:38] Speaker A: And for scouting report purposes, too, if you can add another pitch in that teams haven't seen yet. Now, I know it's synergy. Everybody pretty much knows what everybody's got now with synergy, but I think that's been a hard adjustment for everybody like you. There's no guessing anymore. If you want to spend enough time watching film on the other team, like you're going to know exactly what they're going to do, that's a hard one. [00:35:01] Speaker B: It's better work. [00:35:02] Speaker A: I mean, synergy is awesome. It is awesome. But there are no secrets anymore. [00:35:08] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I mean, we used to. We used to spend a lot of time calling a lot of guys. And you. You lived it, man, back in the day, trying to get reports and, you know, making deals and trade it. This, that. Yeah. But now it's just. You get on the computer and you can sit there and watch is it is made. I love it. It has made a huge difference for sure. [00:35:29] Speaker A: What do coaches at the lower levels need to hear about? Coaching pitchers or what would you like to see about, you know, with the guys that are coming to you, what would you like to see? Maybe what they're not getting at the lower levels. [00:35:42] Speaker B: Oh, you know, the thing is it's just got to be a balance of rest. I mean, you know, you got to give those kids, I've said in the past to, you know, parents, because my son obviously went through the youth system and whatnot. It's dangerous being a really good pitcher at those middle school years because it's easy just to keep running them out there. And I'm just saying proper rest, you know, pitch counts at that age for sure. Monitoring how much they're throwing. And you and I talked about it earlier, most kids are, you know, 13 to 16 are probably two way guys. You know, you gotta watch what's going on on the other side of the ball other than pitching, as far as the volume, the volume of the throws and the rest. And then also, you know, then you factor in maybe what they're doing outside of your organization, how much are they going throwing programs someplace else, playing on other teams. It's all, it's got to be threaded together. [00:36:44] Speaker A: We've talked about that a lot on the youth and travel and the high school side. I think we're coaches that don't have good feel for this. They have a tournament the first weekend of the year and a kid, you know, the pitch count might be, the pinch limit, might be 90 pitches. They're not ready to throw 90 pitches yet. So as a coach, you have to understand that there's a gradual buildup over the course of a season. Just because a kid can throw 90 pitches that first time out, because the tournament or the high school is allowing that, they're nowhere ready. I mean, for you, that first weekend, what are you hoping to get out of your, your weekend starters? Pitch wise? [00:37:25] Speaker B: 65 to, you know, 75 and 75 is probably pushing it because we get him out to 75. Yeah. [00:37:32] Speaker A: And when does that process start for you? I think you've done a great job eliminating injuries with your arms. When does that process start for your guys? From the, from the end of the fall to then get ready to face somebody else in the spring, in February? [00:37:49] Speaker B: Well, the way it's interesting because you finish fall ball, then you go home for or you finish fall ball, you finish your individual segments in December and then basically December and January that you got a six week period where They've been built up and now you're, you have your no contact. So we come back in January right around Martin Luther King Day, and we go into individuals and we start very slow right there, starting to build it up basically. Then you go out to 45, but again you're getting three or four days in between. So 30 pitches, 45 pitches, then five days, 16, then five days, whatever, 75. But it starts day one when they're back on campus and our guys are outstanding. And that's what we talked about in the past with guys that want to be good, our guys that want to be really good, they take it upon themselves. I mean they're, they're back a week or so early on their own getting their, getting their work in. But it starts, it starts as soon as they get back on campus. [00:38:44] Speaker A: When does their long toss program start? In December to start to get built up. [00:38:51] Speaker B: I give them a six week throwing program. At least that covers that whole six weeks. So here's, and that's the thing, the other thing that people I've talked about in the past, a lot of different places, we throw a lot here, we throw a lot pitch once in a while, we pitch once more. That's why I tell our guys again, day one on campus, we have 132 days. We're gonna, you're gonna play catch way more than you're gonna, you're gonna pitch and we're gonna play really good catch. So that, and, but there's a, there's a difference between throwing and pitching. But we throw all the time. And then every once in a while we pitch, you know, either flat ground, bullpen or game, but we're throwing all the time. [00:39:37] Speaker A: In that six week, in the six week off season throwing program, how many times will they get off the mound before they get to campus? [00:39:44] Speaker B: They will probably. I don't have it in front of me. I would say three. Three. And it's, it's by intensity too. It's like 70, 70% intensity. And then we, and we start, we start with fastball and then we add in the breaking ball as they get closer. [00:40:00] Speaker A: Is that a 10, 15 pitch bull pen the first time they're back? Once they get through their, their off season throwing program. How many, how many bullets they throwing off the mound? [00:40:10] Speaker B: 25 to 30. But again it's regulated intensity. We're not, we're not airing it out and trying to win the carnival teddy bear, you know what I mean? We're regulating the effort. It's more touch and Feel just to get used to going down that slope again and getting the release point out front where you want it to be. And then we add, we had the intensity before. We add volume of throws. [00:40:31] Speaker A: That's a Leo Mazzoni approach. Man, I thought Mazzone was so good, you know, and Spanky, my, my mentor, my head coach at JMU is a mazzone guy. That 75 to 85% Spanky was the best, one of the best pitching minds I've ever been around. Shout out to Coach McFarland. I loved my four years with him because I learned so much on the pitching side from him. And my dad was a good pitching guy too. So I was very fortunate to be around really good kitchen guys. [00:40:58] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. [00:41:00] Speaker A: Do you recruit different styles for staff? [00:41:03] Speaker B: 100%. Yeah. [00:41:05] Speaker A: You have any, you ever. Any sub guys? [00:41:09] Speaker B: Certainly, yeah, we've got, we've got, we've got one right now. We converted one back in the middle. Mid 2000s to a sub guy. 100%. Yeah, I'd like to have. We had a left handed kid that we converted down under and his career took off and I mean he went from a, from a nobody to a dude. And you know what, here's what's cool. And I was telling our pitchers about it the other day, that was two days ago. We took this kid, the right hander, and it just, it wasn't working. He was struggling. He hadn't, he was having no fun. He's 82, 84 right here. And at the end of his freshman year, took him down the left field foul line. I said, here, here's what I want you to do. I want you to stand on this foul line. I want you to throw the ball towards the foul pole and I want you to throw any way you want to other than the way you have been. I said, make something up. I said, you remember being in the backyard throwing a wiffle ball? And he's like, you know, kids don't play wiffle ball anymore. I said, just throw it any way you want to other than the way you have been. This dude drops down first. First throw out of his hand is like, whoa, whoa. Four or five pitches later, I said, get on the mountain. The bullpen, let's see 90 miles an hour. Next thing I know, he's. And he did it on his own. He took all. It's going anywhere you want other than. [00:42:36] Speaker A: The way you have, because not everybody can do it. You have to be really athletic. But the ones that, that, that's how they're supposed to, to throw. They were, they, they were born, they came out of the womb and that's the way they were supposed to throw baseball. And kids fight it so much. And you made a good point. Just watch. I tell coaches that, just watch where their slot is when they play long toss. And if they're, if it's free and easy from out here, then they're probably somebody that should be throwing low three quarter or submarine because that's their natural slot. Because you need to match the lower half with their upper body arm slot. And guys that are free and easy and out here, those are the ones that should be throwing submarine. [00:43:23] Speaker B: Yeah. You get up to 240ft, your arm's gonna find a special arm slot. I can assure you that for sure. [00:43:30] Speaker A: The left handed ones are the best because they, they give batters fits. [00:43:37] Speaker B: You are kidding. And we did, we had a kid, Patrick Dayton. He was, he was here in the, you know, that era, 14 to 18. He's the same way. He was a, he was a high 3/4 kid. He drops down, all of a sudden he's a dude. He played four or five years in minor leagues and it was all because he went down here. And again, it wasn't so much. I said, here, I want you to do this. I said, just don't however you want. And he found was awesome. [00:44:07] Speaker A: Was it challenging coaching your son? [00:44:13] Speaker B: It was a, it was tricky. It really was. I'll be honest with you. Yeah. Because I tended to be a little bit more. I was harder on him, probably had, you know, than maybe somebody else. But it was, it was something I would not change. [00:44:29] Speaker A: It was really cool because I've interviewed a lot of, a lot of head coach son ones. But for me, I think the assistant son relationship I think is one different because obviously you're not the one making out the lineup either. I think the assistant one is a different dynamic than the head coach son dynamic. [00:44:53] Speaker B: Well, I would, I would probably agree with you. I don't know that for sure because I, I didn't have to do that. But yeah, it was, it was challenge. I'll be honest with you. It was challenging. [00:45:02] Speaker A: Did you guys have guidelines? I mean, how did you guys work through that, you know, with, with your relationship? How do you separate the coach son relationship or the coach player relationship to the father son relationship? Because I think that's, that's where you got to make it work. Because I lived it. I think you have to separate the coach player relationship from the, the father son relationship. And you know, how did you guys separate that. [00:45:28] Speaker B: Don't call me dad at the field, don't call me coach at home, and don't tell me anything. I don't want to know anything. It was cool. And I always had to remind him. And I would say this to anybody that's out there right now. I reminded him all the time. I said, john, call your mom, please call your mom. Because I still live at home. Yes. So it was cool. [00:46:00] Speaker A: I think you do a great job in game calling because you still call pitches. You let your catcher run most of it. I think you guys do a great job. Your pitchers, anybody who's never watched Kent State play, you need to go watch because their pitches, pitchers, catchers, the tempo is good. I just think there's a lot of things to really like about going to watch you guys play with, with how the pitching staff and the catchers run things and, and you know how much of that is coming from you during the game or how much of that is you trust in the pitcher and the catcher to do it. [00:46:34] Speaker B: We have, I'm calling more pitches right now than in the past like 10 years just because technology makes it a lot easier and we feel a lot safer with it. But it is a lot of just synergy between those two. I'll tell you what, we had a situation. It was at East Carolina, we had a situation. One of our younger right handers was pitching and our veteran catcher, Brody Williams. Brody came up to me in like the third inning and said, he said, I got this, I got this. That's a go. And they just had that synergy, man, and, and it was the balance that you're, you're looking for. And the catcher has the greatest view and the greatest feel. And they just ran the last, the last three innings all by themselves, which is really something that I prefer because we want 2, 2, 3 2. We have, we have our principles and if they stick to those, they can, they can handle it. It's when they start to try to trick guys that you get a little bit off, off track. But yeah, it just makes the pace of the game a lot better. Again, that's back in the day now with this new technology, with what we're using, with the pitch calling, I'm able to do it and I'm still only probably 40, 60. I'm jumping in. [00:47:57] Speaker A: How different are your starters as far as when they prepare? You know, say they are going to start on a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, when they go out to get ready to get off the mound. How different are your guys with Their timeline, the timelines are very similar. [00:48:12] Speaker B: I mean I want them out of the dugout about an hour, 50 minutes to an hour. I just, you know, dugout gets to be kind of a hectic place. So I roll them out of there 50 to 60 minutes prior to the game and they go down. Everything they're doing prior to that hour is usually soft tissue or mental. They're in the trainer's room getting rubbed out or they're rolling out. But then, but then at the hour mark I want them down in the bullpen and you know, that's where for us northern coaches that can be a little bit challenging because you don't really want them out there and you know, 32 degree weather for an hour. But I still think it's important for them to get out acclimated to the environment that they're going to be competing in. And then they go through. Every guy's routine is a little bit different, but it's going to start no later than that 50 minute mark. [00:48:56] Speaker A: So that's when their warm up starts. As far as getting their body moving at the 50 minute mark, they're starting to get their body moving. [00:49:03] Speaker B: Yep, they're starting with the usually like I said prior to the hour, soft tissue, metal in general terms, trainer's room lock, whatever they're doing. And then they start, you know, with the running, the active stretching. Then they roll into their bands, their upper body. Now the arms start coming in and then that flows into the beginning, their, their throwing routine. [00:49:26] Speaker A: Who's playing catch with them? Is the catcher. Catcher playing catch with them? [00:49:31] Speaker B: Starting catcher does, Yes, I would say 90% of the time it's the starting catcher. Correct. [00:49:37] Speaker A: And the starting catcher is not taking in and out typically. [00:49:42] Speaker B: No, no, I feel like that's down there. [00:49:49] Speaker A: By the way, with John, you must, with John you must have done a good job because he's still in baseball. [00:49:56] Speaker B: Yeah, he's still around it. Yeah, he does. You know, he scouted for five years. Now he's helping coach it at a high school down, down in the Columbus area. He, he loves it, man. He loves it. I think he would do a full time if, if it was possible. [00:50:10] Speaker A: Do you have a fail forward moment? You have something you thought was going to set you back, but looking back now, it helped you move forward. [00:50:19] Speaker B: As far as coaching. [00:50:20] Speaker A: Coaching. [00:50:21] Speaker B: Personal. [00:50:21] Speaker A: Could be coaching. Could be personal. [00:50:26] Speaker B: Oh man. You know there was, there was just, you know there's a lot in my, in my playing career there and I just told the story to the kids the other Day, the guys the other day, there was a lot of failure. There really was. I mean, a lot of. I kept breaking my thumb. You know, I learned when you throw average stuff out over the plate, the really good hitters, they're probably hit right back at you. And just hanging in there and being stubborn can pay off, you know, and just because the other thing I learned as a player, just because somebody says something about you doesn't mean they're wrong. Right? [00:51:04] Speaker A: Yes. [00:51:08] Speaker B: I had a GM one time, tell me we. When they dfa me, he said, we still think you're gonna pitch the big leagues again. Okay. All right. Couple years later, I sent him a text. [00:51:31] Speaker A: Have your egg. Have your evening or morning routines changed much over the years? I mean, you're still doing this at a high level. You've been doing it for a long time. Have your evening or morning routines changed much over time for you? [00:51:42] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. And it's an advent of technology. I used to do a lot of stuff at home in the evenings. Just didn't have enough time during the day. And you didn't have all this information access. I was spending a lot of time in the evenings either recruiting or trying to get good information. But now with, you know, you talked about it with synergy, and now you can basically recruit quite a bit off video that didn't exist, you know, even 10 years ago. So it's kind of less than the burden at home because you get done. You can get equally as much done now during the day. [00:52:17] Speaker A: I think that's been the best thing with technology. It's made. It allows you to be more efficient with your time. [00:52:23] Speaker B: 100. I mean, imagine you did it for a lot of years. I mean, I. I remember driving around recruiting and there's some coaches out there. I know they're gonna relate to this. You get that you had that little paper and you're trying to find MapQuest. [00:52:39] Speaker A: MapQuest. [00:52:41] Speaker B: Now you go to MapQuest and plug it into your car and you're there. [00:52:46] Speaker A: I had to use an Atlas. I mean, MapQuest wasn't around in the late 90s. I had to use an atlas. [00:52:54] Speaker B: I still have the first one that I ever. That I ever used. Recruiting. Those places don't even exist. [00:53:02] Speaker A: Hey, I was going to ask you how come you didn't go to Georgia with Coach Strickland? [00:53:07] Speaker B: You know, that was just not meant to be. You know, John was a sophomore here. My wife's. To be perfectly frank, my, you know, my wife's father was in a. Had a health issue that was not Going to be overcomeable. And, you know, it was just. I had. It was a family decision, something I had to do and never really. And I didn't really. You know, I love this place. You know, obviously I love Kent State University and everything stands for and everything that these, these kids mean to me. But, yeah, it was. It just wasn't doable. [00:53:46] Speaker A: Would that be a. Would that be a tip for coaches? I, I think guys get sidetracked sometimes because they think they got to get to the next place. Would that be a tip for coaches? Like, if you're happy at a place because the grass isn't always greener, we, we. We see it happen every year with coaching changes, and I think sometimes guys just make changes to make changes. And I think if you're happy somewhere and you're comfortable, you're happy, you feel like you're fulfilled, I think you should stay. [00:54:17] Speaker B: Yeah. If you got the resources to win or get development, whatever, obviously winning is really important if you've got those resources in place. It doesn't really have to be something you're chasing anyway. If something comes along, it's just, you know, no brainer for sure. But I just don't. I just don't. [00:54:38] Speaker A: Don't mess with happy and with the right people, too. I think that. I think that needs to dictate your changes, too. Like, you got to be around the right people. You got to surround yourself with the right people because there's got to be a lot of trust. Trust. There's got to be trust. I think your staff works really well together. I think it's. You guys all trust each other. I think you guys work great together. All right, what are some final thoughts? [00:55:04] Speaker B: It's been that way my whole career. [00:55:06] Speaker A: Yeah. What are some final thoughts before I let you go? [00:55:08] Speaker B: What's that? [00:55:09] Speaker A: What are some final thoughts before I let you go? [00:55:13] Speaker B: Well, from a pitching perspective. Perspective, you know, throw strikes, find a change up, and please have fun. Please enjoy the. Playing the game. Don't put so much stress on, you know, the next thing that we just talked about it. Enjoy the moment, have fun, throw strikes, play hard. And if you play hard. Now, I went to a high school game last night, one kid played hard, stood out like a sore thumb. If you play hard now, as a young player, man, you will stick out like a sore thumb. But, man, have fun. It's. It's awesome. There's a lot of stress and pressure out there for whatever reason, but, man, just have fun. Pete Berkey. [00:55:52] Speaker A: Thanks for your time, man. I was talking to you. Thanks. Thanks for what's that best pitch in baseball. It's a strike. It's best pitching baseball and also goes awesome talking. Well, and I was going to ask you this too. Have you ever had a guy throw too many strikes? Yes, we're now now they now they have to learn how to throw it out of their zone every once in a while to keep the hitter honest. [00:56:19] Speaker B: 100. Yes. Dirk Hayhurst, one of the all time legends up here. He threw so many strikes. Stop it. Really? I had to talk to. I said really good pitchers know how to throw balls. [00:56:33] Speaker A: Sure. Oh, Berkey, I love it, man. Good luck the rest of the season. Hopefully I see you guys again. But tell Dunk I said hey, but thanks for everything. Appreciate you. [00:56:43] Speaker B: You bet, man. Thank you for everything. Ryan, do a great job, man. [00:56:47] Speaker A: Burkey's one of my favorite coaches in the game. He's a great one to emulate. He's one of the best we have in building relationships with players. I would highly encourage you to reach out to him. Best of luck to Coach Burke. Back in the flashes the rest of the way out. Thanks again to John Litchfield, Zach Hale and Matt west in the ABCA office for all the help on the podcast. Feel free to reach out to me via [email protected], twitter, Instagram or TikTok at coach or direct message me via the MyBC app. This is Ryan Brownlee signing off for the American Baseball Coaches Association. Thanks and leave it better for those behind you wait for another word. [00:57:42] Speaker B: And the world will always return as your life there before your name and you know that way. [00:57:56] Speaker A: Wait for another. [00:58:02] Speaker B: Day Sa.