[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the ABCA's podcast. I'm your host Ryan Brownlee.
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Next up on the ABCA podcast is ABCA Marines Division 1 Assistant Coach of the Year Kevin McMullen. McMullen is entering his 22nd season as Associate Head coach at the University of Virginia. Cavaliers have been one of the most consistent programs in Division 1 over the last 20 years with one national championship, seven College World Series appearances and 17 NCAA regional appearances. Cavaliers have won 886 games during McMullen's tenure. McMullen is regarded as one of the best recruiters and developers in college baseball with over 100 players signed professional contracts, 52 of his UVA position players being selected in the MLB draft, including 17 who have reached the big leagues. McMullen previously coached professionally in the Braves organization and collegiate at ECU, St. John's and his alma mater, IUP. Let's welcome Kevin McMullen to the podcast here with Kevin McMullen, ABCA Marines Division 1 Assistant Coach of the Year. He's in his 22nd season at UVA. I can't imag. I can't believe I just said that, but with the Braves, ECU St. John's but IU, Pennsylvania hall of Famer Matthew and I go way back to the old days. So thanks for jumping on with me.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: Yeah, Rod, thanks for having me. Excited to talk some ball fitting that.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: The Marines sponsor this award because this is Veterans Day. So I don't know your thoughts on the Marines, but they've done a lot for me and my family.
[00:03:35] Speaker B: Well, I think it's America's heroes, you know, I think anyone that could sacrifice for us to live free is incredibly impressive. And I don't know if I have the guts to be Marine, but I'm glad I'm doing what I'm doing and I'm thankful and grateful that they are providing our safety all around the world.
[00:03:59] Speaker A: How'd you get hooked up with Ed Blankmire?
[00:04:02] Speaker B: Ed Blankmire. I was at a wedding.
I was the head coach at iup.
I was at a wedding of one of his former players, Mike lamitola, a buddy of mine I grew up with. And I had a chance to talk to Ed Blinkmeyer's father in law, Mike Shepard, at the wedding and just sort of said, hey, listen, I know your, your son in law's got a job open. I'm going in there tomorrow to interview for the job. Can you give me any tips? You know, so Shep goes, hey, just tell him, be truthful with him and tell them, let's get it going. So.
So I interviewed with Blankie the Monday after a Sunday or Saturday night wedding. I met with him in New York City on Monday, had interviewed, you know, 15 or 20 guys already, didn't hire anybody. So I was looking to get a little mentorship and be around good people. And everyone I've talked to about Eddie was like, hey, man, he's the best of the best. He knows this space, you know, in the New Jersey, New York, you know, eastern Pennsylvania, New England area as good as anybody. And knowing never said a bad word about him. Anyone I talked to, from a former player to a former guy that coached with him and always in the coaching business. So that's how I started with Blanks and, you know, great mentor of mine. First, first mentor I really had as a baseball coach. And it was incredible guy to start with.
[00:05:26] Speaker A: How'd you know it was time to leave IUP?
[00:05:29] Speaker B: Well, I was, I think I was 24 at the time, or 25, and just felt like if I stayed there, you know, three or four more years, I would have the structure in place to probably never leave. And I had aspirations to be a head coach at the Division 1 level. By the time I was 35, and I was just moving in that direction. And again, like, I had a lot of mentorship in football. I coached football for a little bit, but baseball was my calling. I love what I do, and I thought my football could help my baseball, and I just thought it was time to get out of there. You know, I did what I could do in the three years I was there and. And just look forward to getting bigger.
[00:06:08] Speaker A: And better challenges in our time. When you were at ECU and I was at jmu, you always came across as a football coach, and I mean that in the best way possible. It just the way that you were structured and how you did things, it always had a football vibe to it.
[00:06:23] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I grew up in a football household. My dad was an NFL player. You know, football was the sport in my house. Baseball was the fun piece. So I just had that kind of structure that, you know, the discipline. You gotta wake up in the morning, you gotta do things to be prepared for the day. And, you know, football does that for you. The lower levels, things are so different now at the youth level than they were when we were, you know, growing up. So football had the most structure. And that's what I gravitate, gravitated to. And I still structure our practices this way. Like, you know, it's breakdown by periods. It's minutes, it's, you know, efficient. It's what we're going to do and when that period's done and we move to the next period. And I learned a lot of that stuff from football.
[00:07:04] Speaker A: And you said Ed was really your first baseball mentor. What were some things that stuck out about his mentorship?
[00:07:10] Speaker B: I think the most impressive thing, you know, after being there a couple weeks is, you know, you get frustrated. You want them to do it. You know, the first time you teach it, he says, hey, listen, just slow down. It'll come to him. You're telling them the same thing every day. You're. You're sharing the right things. Everybody's clock's a little bit different, so have a little bit more patience. This is not football. No one's going to die if they get hit in the side of the head or anything, thing like that. He said, just take your time. They'll come through. You know, they'll come too. Just keep teaching the same things, keep it basic, keep it fundamental, and they'll. They'll turn the page at some point.
[00:07:46] Speaker A: And then how did you get hooked up with Coach LeClaire at ECU?
[00:07:50] Speaker B: Well, I had a mutual friend Todd Raleigh. Todd was an assistant coach there, was at JMU before that. And we just be. Became friends on the road, consulted in one another at different times. Recruiting wise, we're at a lot of the same event. So when that job opened up, I reached out to Todd. Todd was the coach, went to Western Carolina. I said, hey, I'd be interested in that space. Can you tell me about, you know, the people there? And he said, hey, he's the best guy in the world. He's. He's going to let you do your job.
He's going to support whatever you believe in. And he's a man of faith. You'll have a different perspective by being involved with him. You know, he treats the first player like the 35th player on the roster. And I thought that was a really special thing to be said about a guy that, you know, you don't really know and you're going to go work with him every day. And it was, it was one of the best decisions I made in my, you know, moving forward. I always wanted to be in the south because in the Northeast, everybody wants to go play in the South. At that time, you know, you were recruiting freshmen in high school and sophomores in high school where you could say, okay, come to St. John's even though you're young. And then most kids want to go south. So I said, well, let me go down south, see if I can recruit, recruit in the north, in the South. And it worked out for us there and had an incredible, incredible experience. At East Carolina, you feel like it.
[00:09:16] Speaker A: Helped you too, because St. John's obviously a different academic institution than East Carolina, so you get a chance to recruit to a different school.
[00:09:24] Speaker B: Yeah, I think every place has their own unique vibe. You know, I think St. John's you could get the Jersey kids, some Long island kids, some New England kids that felt like they were coming south. They had a really, really great business space because of where they're located in New York City. East Carolina had, you know, basically teaching. They had some business piece of it. They had some, you know, recreation things. So you got different opportunities to recruit different styles of kids. And I think the really, the big thing is always, you know, when I first started, everybody wanted to go south. So that was my initial, you know, as a coach. I want to go south so I can, you know, continue to recruit the better kids in the Northeast and bring them south.
[00:10:08] Speaker A: I was thinking about this morning in the shower, how many of those ECU players are still involved with the baseball. I mean, think about Eric and Nick Schnabel and Joe Hastings and Cliff Godwin. And that's just off the top of my head this morning when I was in showering. But how many of those other guys are still involved in baseball?
[00:10:24] Speaker B: Well, how about Clayton McCullough? Just Marlin's job. He's the manager at the Marlins. Right. Bryant Ward is the recruiting coordinator, associate head coach at ucla. There's a lot of great baseball guys that made an impact on, you know, our lives as coaches because they believed in everything that you taught them. They were 24, seven guys that worked feverishly at them, and they're all. Are all having success in their own little spaces that, you know, we're in here in this, Coaching baseball, scouting baseball, managing baseball. So great group of guys to coach.
You know, I remember my first day there. You know, Coach Leclerc said, coach Mack, you know, I'm here from St. John's first day on the job. He said, do you have anything to share with them? I just said, Omaha, you know, and those guys to this day say the same thing to me. They see me, you know, 30 years later and say, omaha. And I said, yeah, that's. That was the goal. I didn't want to. I wanted to simplify it so we didn't confuse anybody.
[00:11:25] Speaker A: And you're still in the mix recruiting wise. And I've been out of it for a while. Are we missing some of that mentorship? I think about the amount of time that we all spend on the road together, the amount of camps we all work together. Are we missing a little bit of that networking and mentorship piece right now?
[00:11:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not sure, you know, I'm on the road. I'm. I sort of, I hate to say standoffish, but I like to go in my space because my concentration levels are better when I'm not distracted.
I don't know. I think, you know, our younger coaches right now have so much more technology skill than us older, older coaches in this business. I'm 57 now, but, you know, I try to listen and learn from those guys to try to make our space a little bit more efficient.
You know, I think the camps part of it, you know, camps were where you networked a lot back in the day. And, you know, everyone's having camps now. Everyone's got a travel team, everyone's got a showcase event to go to. So you got to pick and choose based on where you're at. And I always thought those camps, you learned a lot about guys that potentially want to coach and do certain Things because they, they're on the spot. They got to coach base running, they got to coach bunting. You know, they got to do it for 14 hours a day in that camp. And it sort of gets them ready to say, okay, I can be in there. I mean, Matt Kirby, our recruiting coordinator here at Virginia, I remember guy threw like five rounds of batting practice, hit fungos, and I'm like, hey, we got this opportunity coming open. I never forget he worked his tail off at camp. Camp. And that's what you went back to. You say, this guy's got tremendous work ethic and he'll. He would fit right here. So I don't know if. If that's as prevalent anymore. I'm not going to work camps. I mean, we used to be able to work at camp, you know, at Christmas time, we would. We'd go to Philadelphia, we'd go to South Jersey, and you'd take your staff and you would work camp and you'd meet other people. And that just hasn't happened because of the quiet period and guys not being allowed to leave campus and those kind of things with recruiting.
[00:13:24] Speaker A: And that's a good point for somebody that's just getting into it. Is that what you would tell them to kind of make sure you get into your own space so you can pay attention?
[00:13:34] Speaker B: It just depends on their skill set. You know, I don't have a good concentration skill set unless I'm off to the side. I watch every game from the side as like a coach. So I try to put myself in a position where I can slow it down and concentrate at least. You know, as you get older, you simplify things a little bit more. I used to write a note about every guy. Now I just write a note about the guys that I think could maybe impact our program. So I've simplified it a little bit that way. But that, that's what, you know, experience helps you try to figure those things out.
[00:14:04] Speaker A: Do you have a rating system? So when you're grading guys out, do you. Do you have a rating system? A grading system?
[00:14:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Plus, equal and minus.
[00:14:12] Speaker A: Love it. Love it.
[00:14:13] Speaker B: Pretty simple. Like, okay, this get. It's. It's a. And it's at our level. It's not at the major league level, you know, so, you know, a guy that's a, you know, an equal guy would be a 50 in a major league level, but he might be. He might. He might be a 40 on the rate the major league scale. For me, an equal as a guy that could go one way or the other. Plus guy is a guy that I think can come in and play right away or has two of the five tools maybe, and based on that year and what we need might be a priority guy or might be a, you know, a minus guy that, you know, we don't have access or use for. In that particular recruiting class, I used.
[00:14:49] Speaker A: 10 through 50 is what I used. So I knew if, you know, because, again, we were at all those events. If you go to PG national or PBR Futures Games, that's a lot of kids. So I knew if they were in the 40 range, I knew they could play for us. And above that, maybe a little bit out of our range, but still to make that call, because you never know once you connect with a kid. But anything below 40 was obviously not good enough to play at our level. I think everybody needs to develop kind of something where you can. Because you go to a lot of events, you see a lot of kids where it can just remind you, okay, I did like this kid, in case you forget who they are.
[00:15:26] Speaker B: Yeah. I learned something from Eddie Blankmire, because, you know, my first job, I was a head coach. I was a recruiting coordinator. I was the fundraiser. And you just went, you know, with Blankie. So we should always come back from a recruiting trip, and we'd write guys on the board, and we'd write yellow, green, and blue, you know, and the yellow were follow guys. Green guys were potential guys. Maybe they were skilled enough, but maybe they were out of the area. And blue guys were no doubters. They're in our space. We got to go recruit, and we got to get in the house and home visit. And I never forget it. And I still do it that way, you know, in my mind, like, okay, this guy's a follow guy. This guy's an, you know, a guy we got to recruit. And this. These guys are maybe draft guys that we might tickle them a little bit or talk to them and get a vibe for what they want. But we always. We were always getting that yellow guy that was projectable or that blue guy that just fit our place. And they were from the area, and they respected what the program was all about. So I still use that in my mind mentally. I usually just write their names on the board. So anytime I walk out of my office, I look at that board and say, okay, this is the space we're in. We need two more of these, or we need one of that, just so it's a reference. I can't do it on my phone. I can't do it. On my computer. I got to do it on my whiteboard, definitely.
[00:16:43] Speaker A: How long did it take you to get a handle on the evaluation piece where you could go to a park? I think this is a good point. Because you've been doing it for so long, you're going to be able to walk into a ballpark and say, okay, that kid looks like he might fit for us. That kid's a no. I think it takes a while. How long did it take you to develop that eye?
[00:17:07] Speaker B: I mean, it takes time, I think, you know, and you never want to think you're smarter than everybody else. So you stay in there. You hang in there. I think maybe now, after doing this for almost 30 years, that you could go and say, okay, this guy, skill wise, he fits. How does he go about his business? Does he sit around the dugout, you know, paying attention to the game, or they. They cackling with one another? I mean, it takes you probably two or three innings, you know, to see some of those attributes that you want as a, you know, in your players. So experience, obviously slows it down for you. But I think, you know, one time through the order, you're like, okay, I got to stay at this game, or I got to go as far as, you know, tracking position players compared to, you know, pitchers. Pitchers, you got to obviously see all their stuff, and you might be able to do that in 15 pitches and then come back and see them compete later in a tournament. But I think position players, it's a little bit challenging because you got to see the bats, you know, you got to see how they handle themselves, how they. If they struggle, do they bounce back, or is it just a meltdown? So I think there's a bunch of different ways to do it, but I think one time through the order, you have an understanding of, like, okay, I got to stay and see this guy. Four or five more bats.
[00:18:17] Speaker A: And you played professional baseball, but what did coaching and pro ball do for you?
[00:18:24] Speaker B: I would say it's like getting a master's degree, you know, and a PhD because you play so much, there's so many situations, right, that come up that you can experience in such a short period of time. You know, I remember Chino Kalahia. I'm managing in Danville. It's bases loaded, nobody out, and I got the infield in. He said, no, no, you got an infield back. You get two for one, you give one up here, you get two, you're a pop out of the way and only giving up one run in the inning. And I Never. You know, I always thought it was so hard to hit the ball in the air in that situation as a hitter that, hey, put the ball on the ground. He said, yeah, but the ball is going to be fast on the ground in this situation, so take the two outs for one run. So all those little things like that that you learned base running wise, so many experiences to make good decisions bad. And you know, on that level, you know that everybody wants to win, but they don't, they don't care if you lose, just as long as you continue to learn lessons. And, you know, the major league guys who get to the big leagues are the best at making decisions and running the bases and making all those good defensive decisions. So I think it just gives you a ton of experience in a short window because of all the games you play in, all the situations that arise.
[00:19:41] Speaker A: In the game, you're so competitive. Did that bother you at all as a manager? That, okay, this is on getting guys the next level, not on our win loss record.
[00:19:51] Speaker B: Well, I worked for a great guy, Dayton Moore, you know, Dayton said, hey, let them play for seven innings. If you can win the game in the eighth and ninth inning, you know, win the game. If you got to hit and run, you got it. You got to bump whatever it is. Because winning is important to us. And this is with the Braves. Winning is important to us at the highest level. And winning players need to be able to do those kind of things. So I'll never forget, he said, hey, I said, it's good when you work, you know, 12, 14 hours a day as a player. When you get there and you get six hours in and you go home with a win, I don't care who you are, you sleep better, you get up with more pep in your step. Just because of life is about winning and losing for the most part.
[00:20:30] Speaker A: Yeah, because you get used to the losing part of it then too.
[00:20:33] Speaker B: Yeah, it creates a bad attitude. Guys don't want to come to the park. They're not as detailed and efficient. I think, you know, part of why I coach is because of the people that have made impacts on me. And I've always tried to make it competitive, fun, challenging.
You know, when I say fun, be able to harass one another a little bit in a mindset where, you know, you got to thicken your skin up a little bit. I think, you know, when you play all those games in a minor league level, there's a lot of teaching that can go on and learns, but the reality is, hey, you gotta, you gotta turn the page, you gotta come back tomorrow and you still gotta provide as a coach an opportunity for these guys to grow and challenge. And so, so I really enjoyed the professional game. I just, you know, I had a young family at the time and I think it was important for me to be there for breakfast and dinner and I wound up being able to do that. In the collegiate ranks.
[00:21:27] Speaker A: You guys at UVA are probably the, I'd say maybe top three most consistent programs over the last 20 years. How do you guys reengage every year? I mean, the expectations, obviously you guys are going to be in Omaha and you know how hard it is to get there, but how do you guys reengage every year because you guys are so consistent.
[00:21:44] Speaker B: Yeah, I would think we just. Every year it's new year. You know, I don't think we rely on what we've done in the past other than the experience and how to manage the players and maybe set something up to improve people.
But I don't, we don't worry about what happened in the past. We worry about what we got going on with this group every day. You know, we don't rely on, you know, guys aren't coming in the office at 10:00am, they're coming in at 7:30 to 9:00 in the morning. They're staying until the end of the day. So we're not taking anything for granted. And you know, that's what we sell in our recruiting process, that, hey, we're going to be here for you, we're going to challenge you to be the best every day. And we got, you know, the proof is in the pudding, but you got to live it instead of just say it as well. So I think when they can see you do it, let's lets them feel more comfortable. Like everybody's engaged, everybody's committed to the process, everybody's committed to be the best they can be. So I think it's just it. Every year is a new year. You can't rely on what you did in the past other than the experience part of it, and try to win today. And we continue to tell our players that and we continue to try to do it as a staff.
[00:22:52] Speaker A: You guys are individuals right now. Is this the best time for players to work on their skills?
[00:22:57] Speaker B: Well, I think, I don't know how many years ago, rather they took 14 more days away from skill development because they got to give them off days and all that kind of stuff. Our guys don't really want off days, but it's just part of the NCAA rules So we've done, we've treated every day as a player development individual day as well as a team development day.
There's times you, I mean I sit in the cages for an hour before practice just to watch guys work and suggest different things based on what their needs are. And then every day is a player development day. So back in the day we'd do, you know, we'd have two more weeks, so we'd get five weeks individual skill work and we'd be more two on one, four on one. We all, we do all team skill work and within that skill work we do player development pieces. Whether it be base running today. You know, our competition today is move the runner, score the runner, safety squeeze for the team competition. They'll go 20 minutes, ground balls, decision making and they'll flip in 20 minutes where the outfielders and they'll be facing a machine pitch stuff where they're still getting at bats live, but they also were in the cages for 30 minutes before they ever came out there. Just doing their individual programming on their own. Which, you know, part of our jobs as coaches make sure when they leave here they're equipped to handle themselves and they don't need to rely on anybody. You know, we always say the crutches are gone. You're going to walk on your own two feet when you're out or here. And at some point you'll be your best infield coach or base running coach or hitting coach or pitching coach. And that's, that's our job, is try to give them equipment to go out in the real world, you know, professional baseball, if it, it's right for that particular guy and be equipped and prepared. So I think, you know, the individual part, there's always an individual piece to talk to the guy and what his needs are. But we try to do it in a team climate.
[00:24:48] Speaker A: Saw you guys at Wake at practice day a couple years ago and I really liked your pre BP routine you were doing with the players into the sock net.
How long have you done that? Is it still the same?
[00:25:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean it's the same routine. It's just, you know, we might add some edges to it based on, you know, things you learn, things you watch people, you know, maybe share with you. But we try to do an overload, a heavy bat type thing. Some people are like, well you need 20 over this. I just take a donut and put it on a heavy handed bat and let it rip. Make it 30 inches. I don't want to over complicate it like I'M a scientist.
Then we do some speed stuff with a fungo because you got to move it fast and then some grip stuff that just allows you to stay aligned up and fundamentally through the ball and then some two strike stuff that. But you know, we do a pretty good job putting the ball in play with two strikes and that's all we profess. We don't have any magic formula other than hey, hit the inside part of the ball in the middle of the field and see what happens.
[00:25:52] Speaker A: You think that's a good tip right now with two strike approach is simplifying it?
[00:25:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I do. I just say you verse ball. You know, I think, you know where some people preach different things out to end, you know, I just say, hey, fastball down the middle of the plate, compete against the ball. If it moves, stay on it. If it speeds up, stay short to it, you know, and each guys, you know if. I think the most important thing in my experience here is you can profess all the things you want, but if you don't practice them, they don't believe in them, they don't trust them because they don't know. So if you practice it, you know, we practice it every day and it becomes part of our fiber and it's what we do, so to speak. And I think when you do that, that they believe in it and when they see the results and you can share numbers with them, you know, successfully is clues. So this is what we're going to do and until something's different or something can change to improve us, let's, let's stay the course. And I think our older guys do a great job sharing with our younger guys that hey man, this is a little fast initially, but in time it'll slow down. And because we're practicing it every day, compared to just preaching it, we're also practicing it.
[00:27:05] Speaker A: I think people over complicate the two strike approach. I think if you get your eyes in the middle of the plate, then that allows you to battle the edges as needed.
[00:27:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I just think nine inches both ways, right. When you just say you versus the ball in that space, it's pretty damn simple. Just stay in that. You know, it's probably a 19 to 20 inch space, you know, because the plates got a little, little flexibility to it depending on the umpires and the guy pitching. But if you stay middle, at least you're on balance all the time, you know, and if you're in balance, you'll see the ball a little better and you know, probably be a little bit More accurate with the barrel.
[00:27:40] Speaker A: How have you evolved as a third base coach?
[00:27:45] Speaker B: I'm using a card this fall.
I'm old school or signs, because I do. I have a lot of reminder signs from a teaching standpoint.
So I have gone in our inner squad things. I have a card. They have a card on there.
You know, I'd probably do it for five pitches and then I don't do it for, you know, three innings. And then I might go back to it a little bit. And I asked our guys, I said, what do you think about that? That's awesome. Like, sometimes you can use the card, sometimes you can't use the card. So maybe they pay less attention to you, try to steal your signs. But I think I have to have the card in play now just because of the transfer portal stuff, you know, and guys are moving other clubs, you know, I remember two years ago, we're playing pit and we had a grad student transfer to pit and I gave one of our old signs to see if they were looking and our guy runs and it's totally the wrong side. He thinks we get the same signs because the guy guy was like, well, you gave me the. I said. He goes, that was for the old sides. I said, yeah, I told you pre practice. We're trying to deacom here. So I just have the card as a safety valve. I, you know, I had same signs for like 27 years and I switched them last year for the first time and I'm going to continue to switch him. And it makes you keep your blade sharp a little bit as well. But I'll also have the card from when we play another player that maybe, you know, left to go to another school.
[00:29:14] Speaker A: I loved the cards. I loved them. But we would use numbers off the different bodies. So it still looked like I was given signs rather than flashing the numbers. I know everybody does it different, but I liked it. I felt like it allowed us to get more offensive things in play and it was a little easier for the players not to have to remember everything on sign sequence stuff. And then still mixing flash stuff in. Like, I think it opens up a lot of things to you and you can add dummy signs in. I think there's just a lot of things that you can do with the card that make it a little bit easier for the players too.
[00:29:47] Speaker B: Well, I think, like, you know, my simplification is probably the most important part because I don't have a mind that works. It's pretty simple. It's black and white. There's no gray areas. And at least the card, I mean, I. Well, I thought you gave a two. It looked like a two. It looked like a one. I'm like, all these people were telling me, you can't miss a sign on the cards. That's what they're called.
It may be my fat fingers or my angles. I still got to figure all that stuff out. But I. I do, like a little bit. It gives. It gives a little bit different feel for it, but I like being in it because, you know, the reminder signs I can teach, you know, things that we practice on a daily basis and whether it's, you know, checking back on a line drive, you know, centering up with two strikes instead of remembering what the last pitch was, I got, you know, hand gestures. It's a little bit like sign language, but it's for baseball.
[00:30:38] Speaker A: You know, I think you guys have been as good as anybody with developing freshmen and getting freshmen ready to play. Is that recruiting? Is it? Development is a little bit of both.
[00:30:48] Speaker B: Both.
I think it's a little bit of both. I think there's a little bit of luck involved in there too. You know, everybody's. The pace of their growth between the years is important. I think, you know, the recruiting part of it is, you know, where they came from.
Most of those younger guys were being challenged at the high school, at the travel ball level based on the coaches and the organizations they're coming from. So that's number one. Number two, somebody. Some guys pick up, up what you do quicker than others, you know, because it's. Because they're coming from those high level programs that teach different things. I know the signs here are initially pretty tough and I spend a lot of time with them, but, you know, once they get used to it, it's pretty simple, you know, And I just think if you can, if you can have two or three freshmen position players every year have some sort of impact on your club, especially in this day and age with transfer portals, you're doing a pretty good job evaluating the player.
There'll be some guys that I think in this rookie class that could play for us, but we also have some strong candidates in front of them that maybe are in junior years. And these guys can learn a little bit, they can slow it down, they can get stronger, they can still play or develop even though they're not playing, quote unquote in the game in the spring because of all the things we do in preparation. And, you know, we make every day pretty intentional and it's at game speed. So I think guys can feel Themselves get better and they're not in panic mode like, hey, I got to get 200 at bat. Well, I'm getting them every day based on how we do our player development model. So they still feel like they're playing and they're. And they're getting challenged to be better.
[00:32:25] Speaker A: When are you setting roles for players?
[00:32:29] Speaker B: Probably, you know, the second week coming back. I mean, you have a mental idea, you know, based on how they're handling everything on a daily basis. But you know, there's tweeners that guys that you think are good enough to play and they got a pretty experienced guy in front of them probably in two weeks into the spring, you know, when I say two weeks into the spring, we're getting ready to, you know, start being the A team versus the B team in your inner squad scrimmages. You know, right now we're intermingled with all that kind of stuff. And I think two, two weeks into the spring you got a pretty good idea as they do as well as a player.
[00:33:05] Speaker A: How have you guys navigated Nil and the portal? I mean, I. You guys weren't doing a lot of portal stuff in the beginning.
[00:33:13] Speaker B: I think the portal thing has been a great thing for us because, you know, we have a tough time. You know, we get challenged with the major league drafts and some of the kids that we sign out of high school, we've had a couple years, we've lost, you know, really quality, quality players and numerous of them. So most time you can supplement them with junior college players. Here at Virginia, junior college players are challenging because some of the transferable credits a challenge for us to get kid. So the portal has been actually pretty good because four year transfers are easier to get into school here academically than the two year kids are. And the two year kids are going for multiple reasons why they went to that junior college. And so the portal has been a good thing for us to supplement, you know, a piece here and there. We've done a little bit more on the mound than we've done position player wise. But we've been pretty lucky, pretty fortunate.
But we're not, you know, we're not overhauling our program through the portal. We're still going to do it through the high school players that have, you know, development windows in front of them. Maybe the high end guys. We might have to protect ourselves in the portal. You know, I know last year, you know, we had two potential position players that we would have loved to have, but we had to wait for the draft and see if Guys were going to go in the first 50 picks and sure enough, you know, 43 and 44, they're gone. And you wish you would have had that portal guy at the time, but, but it's just how the timing of it works, so you have to make decisions. But it's a great opportunity for us. Nil is, I think, incredible for our sport because of, you know, we're not a fully sc, we're not 34 scholarship. You know, I know what we can do, but we're not there yet. We're 11.7. So anytime you can supplement a family and help them by different avenues of finances, I think it's a positive thing for us.
I Wish we had $10 million in nil. We don't. But just to be able to take care of the players, we're doing a better job. Those guys are getting more, you know, more rewarded for their work and their investment, and I think it's a great thing for the player.
[00:35:21] Speaker A: Would you like to see any guardrails put on it?
[00:35:26] Speaker B: You know, I think the way it is now, it's just basically pay for play, you know, and you have the choice, you know, because you can be involved in it. Now, I think at certain levels of guardrails just, you know, maybe it's true. Nil, if they change the scholarships and they move it to, I don't know, 18 or 20 or 25, whatever, whatever each school can probably do because of the gender equity piece, you know, I know, I know the NCAA says 34, but that's not really practical in our world when you have, you know, a government subsidized university that, you know, you got, you got to mix all that money, that's the NIL part doesn't really come into that. So, yeah, I think guardrails would be good. Maybe it's true Nil based on the best players that are being rewarded. But it's really nice to be able to help others out. But if the scholarships change, that's another way you can help others out.
[00:36:22] Speaker A: And I, for me, it's like there's so many avenues you can go with that. But for me, if somebody's on money and they're playing, I think you should still have to sit out if you transfer. But that's just, that's my Pollyannish view on that.
[00:36:35] Speaker B: Well, I'm, I'm a little bit old school as well. I, I, I think, you know, there should be parameters put on that part of it. You know, you can't just, you know, I was a Division 2 player. I really went there to play football and I wound up wanting playing baseball and had the opportunity to pay, potentially transfer, play Division 1 baseball. And I said, you know, my, my football coach said, well, you can play bas this spring. Okay, well, that. Because I was having a great experience where I was at.
But, you know, you just.
There's different. Guardrails would be the right way to do it. So, you know, third parties are not reaching out to kids. It's just, it gets a little gray and a little bit murky. And like I said earlier, I'm a black and white guy. I'd like to know what's going on. I like the timelines, you know, decisions. And this just makes it continuous. And you have to, you know, you have to continue to work. If you stop working, then someone's going to run by you. So I think the, I think it's great for, for certain situations, but like you said, I think the guardrails would be something that at least navigate. You have some sort of a starting point, a finishing point.
[00:37:42] Speaker A: Can we ever get the draft move back?
[00:37:45] Speaker B: Move back to where?
[00:37:45] Speaker A: That would, that would alleviate a lot of the headaches right now, wouldn't it, if we could get the draft back to where it was.
[00:37:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I think professional baseball probably likes it where it is.
[00:37:55] Speaker A: And I don't think the scouts do, though.
[00:37:57] Speaker B: Well, I don't think the scouts do either, but they're not making the decisions. They're just doing work.
[00:38:05] Speaker A: That is correct.
[00:38:06] Speaker B: You know, I was, I was so used to it, right. I was so used to it being in June. And, you know, everybody's like, well, this, you know, it bothers the Cup. We've been doing it forever. Yeah.
Like this is just later in the process. You know, maybe we need to change our windows to, to, to help our sport out. That maybe it's a later time or it's a quicker time. I, I think the more time you have to go get players because of, you know, you're signing July 15th and you got two weeks or maybe even two weeks to August. Maybe it's instead August 1st, it's August 8th or what, what have you. But then, then again the guardrails would be up, you know, starting point of finishing point. I just, I'm glad I'm not the recruiting coordinator and all. Coach Kirby's got a difficult task ahead of him. I'm, I'm, I, I love to go out and chase players and compete, do those things. There's just too many, too many entities for my brain. The way it works, so I'm thankful I'm not in that space anymore.
[00:39:12] Speaker A: How'd you handle the recruiting process with Jackson back?
[00:39:17] Speaker B: I tried to put him into a handful of camps of people I really respect in our business and see if there was a liking for him. And unfortunately, Liberty, you know, took a. Gave him an opportunity to go there. And so I just wanted to put them around good people that I knew would challenge them, you know, as a man and as a player, and could obviously help them in both spaces and obviously get a college degree. So. So he's at Liberty right now. It's enjoying experience. He's got a new coach now, so he. He's had the opportunity to be with two different guys that I respect and how they run their program and how they treat their players. So I've been pretty blessed in that direction.
[00:39:58] Speaker A: Any thought of him coming to play for you during high school?
[00:40:03] Speaker B: Not really. Not really. I didn't think initially, not that he's not. Not a smart kid. He just, you know, his diligence academically wasn't. He wanted to play ball, you know, and I didn't do a good enough job as a dad, you know, make the academics the standard. I was doing my part with the baseball, and so I think he was more equipped to go elsewhere. I want it to be his. I don't want it to be, you know, mine. I do enough stuff with him and spend enough time with him to, you know, be a dad to him instead of his coach. And I share different ideas if he asks or give him. Give him some avenues to go to make him own it instead of it being mine. And I think that's important. My dad was an NFL player and never really coached us. Just say if you start, you gotta finish. Do things the right way, respect people and, you know, never got technical with us or any of that kind of stuff. So I try to do the same thing with my son.
[00:41:04] Speaker A: What are some other tips for parents that are working through the process right now with their own kids?
[00:41:09] Speaker B: I. I think, number one, can your son play there? I think that's important because that. That affects every ounce of his day.
And. And will. Will he, you know, grow as a man by the challenges that the program gives him? And will he get a degree? You know, get a degree that they're not all going to play for the rest of their lives? So those are the three things. Make sure he has an opportunity to play. If not, you have to make adjustments. And that's. That's the only good thing about. I Guess the transfer portal nowadays, it doesn't lock you in as a coach or as a player. It depends on what your wants are. You know, if you just want to be part of something that's special, you know, where you can get a great degree and grow as a man. And, you know, those are all the decisions that we looked at, you know, my wife and I from. For our daughters and our son, you know, so I think those are three pretty simple things.
[00:41:59] Speaker A: You've been able to coach some of the best players we've had ever. Division one baseball is an elite mindset like that. Is it developed? Do they. Are they born with. It is a little bit of both?
[00:42:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it's a little bit of both, I think. Depends, you know. You know, we got here whenever that was 2003, and we had some pretty skilled players that I think needed to grow mentally. And, you know, Ryan Zimmerman was one of the best players we ever had here. You know, we. We didn't have to do too much other than look at his game and say, hey, these are areas you can improve on. On.
He. He had that mindset, you know, he learned some things here as well, you know, challenged them a little bit physically, made some adjustments in his mentality about certain situations and, you know, he had that God given skill to be able to do so and took some of the learners that we shared with him and, you know, it stayed with him, it still stays with him to this day. So I think it's a combination of all of it.
But you have to have some structure, you got to have some challenge. You know, you got to have adjustability and you got to be able to put your foot on the gas every day and not stop.
[00:43:10] Speaker A: When do you know when to maybe back off on somebody or is that such a thing?
[00:43:16] Speaker B: I think based on their response and what you're trying to, you know, what conversations you've had, what you're trying to get to, and are they doing all those little things to get to where they said the most important part is for them? And then part of our job is to navigate through those spaces. Pokemon sometimes love them sometimes, you know, hey, you need day off. You know, hey, here are three ideas or two ideas that I think I've been watching you do these certain things, and in our puzzle, this is what you we want you to do.
Here are two ideas like, okay, go get set up on the inner half fastballs. We want you to hit the ball out of the ballpark instead of pushing, you know, singles to the backside because you're you know, middle of the lineup looking type player. So I think. I think all those things are tied in together a little bit. And. And I pull back when the player says, hey, I need a breather for a minute. And it could. It could be for five minutes, it could be 10 minutes, it could be a week. And a week later, you go in and say, listen, I've been watching you for a week. You've really done an incredible job based on the information we shared. And I can see that. I can see it going to work and being productive for you. So all different times, right? As you know, how much time are.
[00:44:28] Speaker A: You spending with hitters coming in on barrel control? Man, it's not something they get taught. Lot coming to you now, but it's important how much time spending with them.
[00:44:37] Speaker B: Every day. Every day. Part of our routine in our. In our, you know, swings, swing space, in our, you know, hitting cages that, you know, we basically playing pepper every day, every four pitches, we're stopping one of them. You know, just, you know, you take a free swing and then you stop one, you know, at 50% or 25%, based on how you categorize 50%. But every day, if you control your feet, you control your eyes, you control the barrel. Barrel, in my opinion, you can continue to develop barrel accuracy.
Unless you just got bad eyes.
[00:45:12] Speaker A: Do you guys test for that? You test eyes?
[00:45:16] Speaker B: We don't. We don't. I don't. I don't. You know, we don't do any of that vision training, you know, other than, you know, two seams and four seams. And we say, is it red? Is it white? People keep it pretty simple.
I think if guys are missing and you might say, hey, do you wear glasses? Do you have contacts? Do you have, you know, know, missing too much? Then you, you know, you go back to some of small bunting things, all those little, you know, catch the ball with your glove, Just make sure that the eyes are working. You know, I mean, you watch a guy on the field and he misses a ton and. But you see him squared up in the cage, you know, it's a little bit conflicting.
So what do you do? You go back to the cadence, or you take the positives out of the cage and say, I've seen you do this in the cage. There's nothing different other than some open space. Maybe the air is a little bit different, and maybe you're trying to do too much out here in this space. Can you take the same routine and mentality from the cage to the field and you know, some guys are quicker than others and I think you got to, you got to give them hope and you got to give them hope by they can see it when they're practicing it. You know, I'm squaring breaking balls up and practice in the cage versus really dirty breaking balls. At some point it's going to connect on the field. If you continue to work at your craft and you pay attention to make some adjustments and little things like that, I think, you know, if you have that continuous mindset to get better and grow, then I think you can improve.
[00:46:43] Speaker A: You brought up bonning and I agree with you. I think it has value from a tracking standpoint. Even if you may not do it in games. I think it adds some value from a tracking standpoint.
[00:46:54] Speaker B: Yeah, we bought you do three or four things for our team every day at the end of our reps in the cages. You either fake, bun, hit and run. Run. You hit and run. You put the ball in play with two strikes, you spread out, or you do some sort of bunt 5 slot, safety squeeze, 3 slot. However, however you categorize your numbers. But you always do something for the team and it's usually at the end of your set. And I always say you got a choice to put in the bank or take out of the bank. If you put in the bank, you can take it out. So if you just go through the motions, you're taking money out of the bank. If you actually compete against it, you're putting the money in the bank. And at some point we might ask you to do that. But that hit and run or that fundamental thing, and if you it every day and you start taking pride in and you're going to increase your bank account instead of decrease your bank account.
[00:47:41] Speaker A: How are you teaching hit and run with guys? It's not an easy skill. Again, that goes back to barrel control. But how are you teaching hit and run with guys?
[00:47:49] Speaker B: Just stay late. Hit the inside part of the ball.
Hit it out of the catcher's glove.
[00:47:56] Speaker A: Love it.
[00:47:57] Speaker B: You know, chase motion, you know, and we do it every day. Again, you know, we do it every day. So if they, you know, I always tell them, hey, if you mess up, hit the ball on the ground. It's pretty simple. You know that dirt in front of the plate, that's usually where really good hit and runs happen.
[00:48:13] Speaker A: How long does it take them to get the feel for? Because it's still an aggressive swing and it's not a fillet swing. It's still an aggressive swing, but they're just dominating the top half of the baseball.
[00:48:23] Speaker B: Yeah. I think, you know, when you teach them it, a lot of them haven't had to do it before. You know, when you put it in a machine pitch, scrimmage and stuff, you know, they flare a little bit here and there and then, you know, just with reps and seeing their teammates do it, an older guy and, and we're doing it every day in the cages, you know, and I just say, hey, it's the cumulative effect. If you do it right, you, you'll, you'll have confidence in it. If you don't do it right, you're not going to have confidence in it. So keep doing it, keep working at it.
That's why they're called hidden cages and skill work in space just, you know, non stop if you keep working. We have an incredible group of workers, really the last three years has been incredible to watch. You don't have to chase anybody. Our older guys have done a great job. We started a mentor program, I don't know, four or five years ago where our older guys have a younger guy for the first 40 days and from a position player standpoint, and we do it as a program as well. Coach O'Connor does it with, just to help guys facilitate how things work at this level, you know, so I've done it with like, you know, I want you to throw with this guy. I want you to do all the pre practice stuff for the first 30 days and it, it slows it down. Gives a leadership opportunity for our older players, which is always great and it connects our team a little bit as well. So it's fun to watch. I try to mentor the mentors, you know, in different spaces and say, hey, these guys are doing eight reps, they're supposed to be doing 10 reps. It's important that you pay attention. You don't just do it side by side with them, but you actually mentor them, you know, and it gives them a little bit of ownership in what we do. And it's been, it's been fun to watch them do it and, and continue to watch guys take leadership roles.
[00:50:05] Speaker A: How do you guys pick the mentor for the younger player?
[00:50:08] Speaker B: I try to match up personality wise. You know, I couldn't, I couldn't speak on Brian's behalf but like from a position player standpoint, a guy, you know, this guy needs to really learn how to throw and this guy's an incredible thrower. Right.
This guy might need to concentrate and this guy's such locked in concentration. I want to put him with this guy and so just try to match him up for, for their physical and mental development.
[00:50:35] Speaker A: You've been to Omaha a lot. How has your routine personally changed over the years or it's still been the same for you?
[00:50:43] Speaker B: Well, I remember the first year we went. I don't, I don't think I saw my family. I was worried about it. We're getting hidden ball trick, you know, and all those kind of things. Watching video, just, you know, coming out of the room for meals and that's it. And then now, you know, last year, the seventh time I've got you, you're never, ever comfortable because, you know, you don't know the performance part of your team. You feel good about it, you got to a good space.
Yeah, it's, it's, it's slowed down a little bit. You take some windows to go, actually enjoy it and you know, smell, smell, smell the work, you know, smell the sense of your work. So it's slowed down a little bit. But, you know, the competitive fight and trying to win, that's never going to change. It's just more so you got, you got a little bit more time management skills than you did in the past. Like, you, you didn't think you could do anything and like you had control of everything. By the time you get there, the players have control of everything, and we just got to continue to navigate and help and lift them up, challenge them and get them prepared. So I think, I think it's just a little bit different now.
[00:51:51] Speaker A: How do you handle your emotions? Because I think your staff does as good a job as anybody of staying low pulse in that environment. I don't know if I'd be able to do that in Omaha in that dugout. I look at you guys and I'm like, they are doing a great job of keeping their emotions in check.
[00:52:06] Speaker B: Yeah, I, I think when it's about the players more so than it's about you, you know, you got to be there for them as a, as a coach, as a parent, all of it. I think, you know, poise is important. You can still be intense, you can still be competitive, but poise is important because, you know, you can't preach to them that have poison and you're out of control, you know, So I think. And again, it's about them, it's not about us. And when it's about, you know, your players and their performance, then you can't get, you can't be a roadblock in the way for them to have the most success they can have. So I think, you know, trust what you're doing and I think give the, you know, it's the players playing the game. The coaches are just navigating, putting you in a good position to have success.
[00:52:55] Speaker A: You ever think about Coach LeClaire looking down on you getting a chance to go to Omaha?
[00:53:01] Speaker B: I, I did early in my time when we first got there because it was such a, it was such a mission for him to try to be able to bring East Carolina there. And I think Cliff's doing the same thing now. You know, at some point they're going to break through and then it's going to become normal for them. But I do. He's the first guy that, you know, Keith had that mission when he took the job at East Carolina. I got in there, you know, I think the third year, his time there and it was just.
We used it here. I remember when we first got here, like, don't you think that's a little bit too far out of reach based on where we're at? And I said, well, I don't think so. At least we have a common space we want to get to and maybe it helps us navigate. We can raise the bar a little bit in certain scenarios that maybe get us there. But that's the ultimate goal, to try to get there and win. Why wouldn't we want that as, you know, part of our space? And Brian was awesome. He's like, yeah, let's go. That's where we want to go. That's what we should be navigating and talking about. So.
[00:54:02] Speaker A: Well, Brian had been there too.
That's a great thing with Oak is he's had experience as a player assistant. Like, he's been there.
[00:54:09] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure, for sure. And, and two challenging places to get there from. And he's, he's done it at all three places, which says a little bit about.
[00:54:18] Speaker A: Do you miss the old Colonial days?
People don't realize how good the league was back then.
[00:54:23] Speaker B: The league was great. And the bus trips were easy.
[00:54:26] Speaker A: Exactly like the travel.
[00:54:29] Speaker B: I remember when we went from the CAA when I was in East Carolina, went from the CA to Conference USA, I was like, boy, we're. We're getting home at 2:00 in the morning. We're getting home on Mondays. Sometimes this is a little bit different, but yeah, I missed, I missed that five hour bus ride to Richmond was a little bit easier. And. Or going to Wilmington or. It just, it was rich. It just, it was easier, you know?
[00:54:50] Speaker A: Yeah. I think about how the landscape of college Athletics now, I don't know. Do we ever get to a point where football just does their own thing and then you bring more of the regional approach back for the other sports?
[00:55:00] Speaker B: That's out of my pig. I know everywhere to go and I'm ready to go. Exactly.
[00:55:06] Speaker A: Exactly. Do you have a fail forward moment? Do you have something you thought was going to set you back but looking back now, it helped you move forward? Lord.
[00:55:16] Speaker B: Not really. Not really. I mean, I've been blessed in a lot of ways and I've always tried to make sure I've given back to the places that have, you know, given me. I've always tried to give back and I don't have any regrets.
I'm thankful for where I'm at and love the lifestyle I live and I get to do it doing something that I love to do.
[00:55:40] Speaker A: Would you have any advice for young assistants right now that are trying to navigate? You've seen, I mean, you've been doing this for 30 plus years and, and you see you're still around younger coaches too now too a little bit. What would you tell somebody that's just getting into this thing?
[00:55:56] Speaker B: You don't know it all. Number one, you got two ears and one mouth, you know, and again, that sounds so old school, Ry, but it's the truth. Like listen twice, twice as much as you talk and then when you got a platform, make sure it's impactful, that you can share that it's not truly about you. It's serving others and you'll get what you deserve because of the mindset of serving others and trying to help people.
[00:56:23] Speaker A: What about somebody who maybe feels like they're in a position? I mean, you mentioned it, you said you want to be a head coach at 35, you've made a great career really as a elite level assistant assistant coach.
That. What about somebody that's maybe in a situation right now where they feel like they could do better?
[00:56:43] Speaker B: Just keep working, let your work do the do the speaking for you. You know, get around good people, study, study the best people. Like we were talking about off the air about different people learning different podcasts and continue to keep your foot on the gas and learn again. Your eyes open, your ears open and at some point, if you get a chance to lead somebody, then you'll gain all that experience that by. By keeping your eyes open and your mouth shut.
[00:57:09] Speaker A: What are some final thoughts before I let you go?
[00:57:13] Speaker B: Grateful for the abca.
It's improved me as a coach, as a man, as a dad, by listening to all these different people that we're involved with.
Grateful I'm coaching baseball, have an opportunity to raise a family, hopefully impact our kids, be great dad and thank all of our colleagues for challenging us every day in this sport to be better than we were yesterday.
[00:57:42] Speaker A: Mack, thanks so much for your time and thank you personally because you helped me so much over the years. So I appreciate everything you've done for me too.
[00:57:49] Speaker B: Thanks, Ryan. I appreciate you having me and I'll see you in D.C. yes, sir.
[00:57:53] Speaker A: Congrats to Coach McMullen on this award. Those of us who have been around him know how good he is at developing players. He's also genuinely a great human being.
Thanks again to John Litchfield, Zach Hale, Matt west and Antonio Walker in the ABC office. For all the help on the podcast. Feel free to reach out to me via email r brownleebca.org Twitter, Instagram and TikTok Coach B owner scorebca or direct message me via the MyBC app. This is Ryan Browning signing off for the American Baseball Coaches Association. Thanks and leave it better for those behind you.
[00:58:46] Speaker B: And the world will always return and your love is there before your name and you know that way wait for another.
[00:59:06] Speaker A: Day.
