[00:00:04] Speaker A: Welcome to the ABCA's podcast. I'm your host Ryan Brownlee.
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Joining us this week on the ABCA podcast is our ABCA NJCAA Division 1 Assistant Coach of the Year, Jake Vickerson.
Vickerson has been involved with the Shelton state program for 11 seasons as a coach and player. The Bucs finished the 2024 season with a 4419 record, a school record 28 conference wins and an appearance in Grand Junction, Colorado at the College World Series. The Bucs had a potent offense in 2024, leading the state of Alabama in hits, triples and total bases. They were also strong on the defensive side, leading the NJCA with 54 double plays. Bickerson was a standout center fielder for the Bucs in 2012 and 13 and finished up his playing career on the SEC at Mississippi State. Let's welcome Jake Vickerson to the podcast here. Jake Vickerson, ABCA NJCA Division 1 Assistant Coach of the Year heading into ninth season at Shelton State, has 265 wins with the program, played for the Bucs in 2012 and 13 and then moved on to Mississippi State. So Jake, thanks for jumping on with me.
[00:03:10] Speaker B: Absolutely. I appreciate you having me On.
[00:03:12] Speaker A: Congrats on the honor, by the way.
[00:03:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I appreciate it. You know, when you have good players, it makes it, you know, the coaches kind of get the accolades, I guess, but obviously we had such a talented team, so, you know, those guys really get the credit for this.
[00:03:27] Speaker A: And all the assistants say that, but I do want to shine a light that you guys are recruiting these guys, but also developing these guys, too. So you do have a huge hand in how these guys turn out.
[00:03:37] Speaker B: I mean, we do, but you know how it goes. You know, you make a run like that.
I didn't throw a pitch, I didn't swing a bat, you know, so we're just along for the ride. And, you know, you obviously want to recruit good players and good families and just hope it works out.
[00:03:52] Speaker A: And you are younger. I mean, you've been doing this a while. But I was going to ask you this. Is social media a good thing or bad thing for players now?
[00:04:00] Speaker B: Tough question. I guess it could be a little bit of both. You know, I think there's so much information now that it's almost become, you know, paralysis by analysis. Almost. Because you. If you. If you want to find something, you can find it, you know, and.
I don't know, I think it could be a good thing, too, though.
[00:04:17] Speaker A: My son's 21, and we talk about this. It's. It's a lot of confirmation bias out there now with what you see. So, like, if you wanted to find something that you agree with, you're probably gonna be able to find it online.
[00:04:28] Speaker B: No, but no doubt about it. And I think that goes with baseball or really anything. The algorithms are kind of built towards that. So if you want to find something that'll agree with you, you look hard enough, you can find it.
[00:04:38] Speaker A: How do you have that conversation with your players as far as what they. They're going to bring you stuff. So how do you sift through some of the noise that's out there for them?
[00:04:45] Speaker B: You know, I'm one of those people. I'm pretty open to really anything, you know, I think. And you coach, so, you know, some things work for some guys, some things don't. So you try to find that middle ground. And, you know, if it's funny to me, it may not be funny to them. So I just tell them, you know, don't. Don't try everything you see. Know, do your research. And, you know, if you want to mess around with it, I'm. I'm really open to anything.
But like you said, there's also a lot of Stuff out there that you're kind of, you know, I'm not, I'm not sure that's going to work for you though. So you just try to shift through it and just try to help them make a good decision.
[00:05:17] Speaker A: Are there any examples that you've got of things that guys brought you that you're like, there's no chance that works and then it works for a guy?
[00:05:25] Speaker B: I can't think of anything in particular. You know, there's a lot of stuff with offense, though. I mean, you know how the offense stuff has changed through. I mean, lord, even since I played, it hadn't been that long, but that's, there's so much stuff. You know, you, you have people with such strong opinions about offensive baseball. But like I said, I don't have an example in particular, but I'm sure there's been something through the years as I've gotten older.
[00:05:45] Speaker A: I just don't, I don't even pay attention to it anymore. If somebody comes to me and they're like, that works. I'm like, okay, if it worked for that individual person, then great, great.
[00:05:54] Speaker B: I feel the same way.
[00:05:54] Speaker A: It's so hard to teach hitting and especially hitting. It's so hard to teach hitting and to get guys to produce on field. That's like, okay, if, if that worked for a guy, great, go do it.
[00:06:05] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. I totally agree. If it works for you, I'm all for it. If it doesn't, hey, we may want to make an adjustment. But hey, like you said, at the end of the day, it is a results based game. So if it's working for you, hey, I'm not, I'm not going to get in your way.
[00:06:17] Speaker A: Sure. Because there's so much art to it with that piece. Like, hey, if it's working for you, go do it.
[00:06:22] Speaker B: For sure, for sure.
[00:06:23] Speaker A: Did you have many options coming out of high school?
[00:06:27] Speaker B: I did, yeah. So I grew up here in town. I actually grew up about five minutes away from Shelton. So, um, I had an older cousin that played at Shelton and pitched at Alabama. My older brother played here and played at Mississippi State. So when you kind of grow up around that, I was pretty dead set on, hey, I want to play in the sec. And if I didn't get that opportunity, I wanted to go to junior college and at least give myself the chance to. So. And that's what I ended up doing.
[00:06:52] Speaker A: Was it hard following your brother's footsteps?
Because I did the same thing. My brother went to Evansville. He played four years ahead of Me. So he and I never played together, but I followed my brother directly.
[00:07:03] Speaker B: We have the exact same. We're four years. No, because it just felt normal. You know, we actually every. We played for the same coaches our whole life. And when he was leaving, I was coming in and by the time you get older, you know, it just feels normal and you know you're going to get the comparisons and that's normal. Obviously, that's just natural. But no, you know, we're very different players. We have very different builds. He's a much bigger guy than I am.
So no, I didn't really feel much pressure from it because it really just seemed normal.
[00:07:32] Speaker A: Did you guys play at any point along the way?
[00:07:36] Speaker B: Nope, never played together.
[00:07:37] Speaker A: I had an older birthday, so Little league. He was 12, I was nine. I had to play up for my class. So I played ahead.
Struggled because I always played with older guys in the beginning. But that was the only time he and I played together. And it was rough on us because he pitched and I caught so we would, oh, wow. We fought a lot in little league. Feel bad for our. Or a little league coach because my brother that. That year which carried over and later in life. So do you feel like a majority of players should look at junior college first?
[00:08:11] Speaker B: You know, I don't think it's for everybody, but I think especially in the modern landscape, recruiting, I think it's an option most, a lot of kids could at least look at. You know, I think sometimes, you know, junior college has kind of gotten the reputation that it's, you know, it's a last resort type level. And I just tell people like, hey, I think it's far from that. I mean, you were at the World Series last year. I tell people like, and I played junior college ball. It's been a while, but I mean it's as good as I've ever seen it. I mean the power arms, I mean the talented players is really good coaches at this level.
I think most high school kids would be surprised at how talented you really have to be to play at an upper level junior college program.
[00:08:50] Speaker A: I tell kids and parents that all the time. I'm like, just go watch. Like, I know everybody gets enamored Division 1 baseball and that's right. Like so. But absolutely it's because they've never watched another level of, of college baseball.
[00:09:04] Speaker B: I just, you know, and there's good levels at all. You know, there's, there's really good, especially in our state. You know, there's a ton of Division 2 programs. They have really good players. I mean, Faulkner's and NAIA school in our state, they've had a ton of success. I'm like, hey, there's. If you go, look, there's really good programs at every level. It's just about fit. You know, I think a lot of kids, you know, you try to tell our players the same thing. It's like, hey, to play at the Division 1 level now, to play in the SEC, the leagues have gotten older. You know, you have to be polished to play at that level. You know, it's the raw freshman who's got ability that, you know, just needs work. It's tough to. It's tough to get innings at those places because those guys have to win. I mean, the amount of money that's being poured into these programs now, those guys have a lot of pressure on them to win, and they can't afford to run you out on a Tuesday night when they have to win that game, you know, So I think that's for junior college. You know, we can afford to do it. You know, it's. It's not like it's not the same, you know, so we can run a guy out there, you can get your innings, you can get your work, and hopefully by the time we get the games that matter, which for us is conference, you know, you'll have something figured out.
[00:10:08] Speaker A: And especially now with the rosters that are going to get trimmed back at some point, it's going to be even harder for. They're just not going to take a developmental guy. They're just not. When you're talking to the Division 1 coaches out there, they are being put in a position now with the rosters getting trimmed to 34, 35 or 40. They're just not going to be able to take those kids. And they will tell you that they are still going to take freshmen, but it's going to be a freshman that's, at some point, probably be a really good draft.
[00:10:33] Speaker B: Yeah, but I think what it's going to end up doing is just funneling players back to the levels they probably should start at. You know, I don't, I don't think that that's a bad thing. You know, I think it gives kids, especially now with the transfer portal. You mean if you, you can go anywhere and if you, you know, if you're good enough, it'll work out for you, you know, So I view the.
[00:10:50] Speaker A: Same thing as the draft. I. I think it should be 20 rounds. I. Heck, it probably should only be 20 rounds for the draft because not everybody should get an opportunity to play professional baseball either.
[00:11:01] Speaker B: No, I don't disagree.
[00:11:02] Speaker A: I think, I think it's a better product now too. When you go watch minor league baseball, that's a much better product on the field than it has been in the past.
[00:11:09] Speaker B: I agree. And it's made college baseball better. I mean, obviously with Alabama being here in town, we watch a lot of SEC baseball. I mean, college. I mean, just really, you look at the last. Really since COVID I mean, I'm a college baseball f in general, but if you look at how good the power fives have gotten since the draft is shortened, I mean, it's, it's fun when a lot of really good high school talent into the power five and I guess you can call it the power four now.
[00:11:30] Speaker A: Even the mid majors, though, I mean, you look at what the mid major.
[00:11:33] Speaker B: Good players all around and it's, it's been good for. It's been good for college baseball.
[00:11:37] Speaker A: Who was on staff at Mississippi State when you got there?
[00:11:41] Speaker B: So John Cohen was our head coach. Butch Thompson was our associate head coach. Nick Minion was a recruiting coordinator. Yeah. Get a good staff. My first year we had Jake Wells who's at Law Tech now, and then Zach Dillon was there my second year, who's now the recording recruiting coordinator at Baylor. So, yeah, we had an awesome staff.
[00:12:00] Speaker A: Yeah, Zach, Zach and I coached together a couple different times at Iowa.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, he was. I tell people he's of all, you know, I've, I've played for some awesome coaches throughout my career, but, you know, he's probably one of the sharper baseball minds. You know, he was a really good hitting guy and it frustrates you because he could still get in there and hit. So. But yeah, I love Zach. He was awesome to play for.
[00:12:19] Speaker A: I tell people that too. Like, it doesn't work for everybody, but I think you should have to coach in a colder weather climate at some point because you have to figure a lot of things out from a player development standpoint. I like that the guys can stay in the south and don't ever have to deal with it, but those of us that coached in the north, you have to get really creative from a player development standpoint. And I was really happy for him that he got a chance to go to Mississippi State after that.
[00:12:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I can only imagine coaching in the cold like that where, you know, obviously here we complain about it being 40, but we don't have to worry about snow. You're not having to worry about any of that type stuff. So, but yeah, I, I can only.
[00:12:54] Speaker A: Imagine what are the differing? Coach cone and. And Coach Sproul.
[00:12:59] Speaker B: Wow. A lot.
I think Coach Sproul's.
He's definitely more old school, per se. You know, I'd say this about him. They're both very intense in their own way. You know, both very like most good coaches, right. Attention to detail matters. They. They don't miss anything. I think the biggest difference is Cohen's just a. His personality is just different than Coach Brow's. You know, he's. He's very intense, but, you know, he's very straight to the point. You know, I tell people all the time, I don't know that there was a better, you know, guy that could prepare you to play than John Cohen did. You know, his practices were very to the point. You know, you didn't waste time, and I think that's probably the case in most places at that level.
But, you know, you just, you always felt prepared at the end of the day. You know, you challenged you, you did hard things. But at the end of the day, you know, when it, when Friday night came and you were facing a big time army, you felt ready to go.
[00:13:54] Speaker A: I always felt like he was going to be an athletic director at some point, though, and I know his associate AD while he was coaching, but you just kind of knew with his attention to detail and he always saw the bigger picture on things where you just felt like he was going to be a good AD at some point.
[00:14:09] Speaker B: I think it's a good fit for him. You know, he's. He definitely had the CEO type personality and he kind of had his hand in everything. And like you said, the bigger picture, you know, I, I think it's a good fit for him.
[00:14:21] Speaker A: I think we coached. I coached against your brother. We played in a tournament down in Mississippi State when your brother was playing there.
[00:14:27] Speaker B: Okay, yeah, he was there. So 10 and 11.
[00:14:30] Speaker A: So, yeah, we were down there. I think Georgia State was down there with us, but we actually ended up okay. Yes, we beat Mississippi State twice, actually, in that tournament. We got lucky. We had a good team, but we, we got lucky. Coach cone got kicked out of both games. I tell people he's like, I tell people he didn't make it past the fourth in either one of those games.
He called the umpire an abomination. That's what got him tossed.
[00:14:55] Speaker B: He's a fiery competitor. There is no doubt about it.
[00:15:03] Speaker A: So what do you feel like your biggest jump? And this is probably for you, relaying to your players now as far as Making that jump from junior College to Division 1 and getting a chance to get on the field, I think the.
[00:15:16] Speaker B: Speed of the game, you know, I think you're told that your whole life, right. You know, you go from high school even to junior college, it's a pretty big jump. But the speed of the game, you know, really the structure of everything right? At the Division 1 level, especially at a school like Mississippi State, you have every resource you can imagine.
You know, we had the big Palmero center there, so there's, you know, I think just the time constraints that, you know, the time that you have to put in at the power five level to even have an opportunity to play, but just what it takes to prepare for your opponents. You know, obviously played in that league. You know, you obviously, you watch it. The type of arms you see day in and day out, the hitters are so good. I mean, when I was coming through, that was the Aaron Nolas of the world. Alex Bregman, Dan's B Swanson, you know, so I think the speed of the game, you know, I think the, probably the biggest difference I think between junior college and that level from a. From an offensive standpoint is guys just have multiple out pitches that they can get you out with. You know, at our level, you know, you'll face a good arm, but typically he's got one out pitch. And at that level, the guy may throw you the slider, but he's got to change up too, you know, and when you start facing arms like that, it makes things really difficult. Especially if you start getting down on the count early.
They got stuff to get you out with.
[00:16:34] Speaker A: I think the change ups, the biggest switch for a lot of hitters going to that level is you're going to see a lot more change ups.
[00:16:40] Speaker B: Well, especially with, especially if you got a guy that can throw you one for a strike and then get the one, you know, just to drop off the table at the end. It's just, it's hard, you know.
[00:16:49] Speaker A: You were SEC academic honor roll.
[00:16:52] Speaker B: I was both here. Yep.
[00:16:54] Speaker A: You feel like I. Because I used to relay that to our JUCO guys. I'm like. Because the amount of resources that we have from an academic standpoint, it may be easier than what you're dealing with at the junior college level.
[00:17:06] Speaker B: Oh, it can be, I think, you know, I tell people about school.
I think if you just put your time in and you care about it, you can make good grades. You know, there's always courses that are going to be tougher for everybody, whether it's A math or a science or especially once you get into your major courses. Obviously there's some tougher courses, but like anything, if you put your time in you, you can do well in school. You know, it just takes effort.
[00:17:30] Speaker A: And I used to tell our guys, I'm like, they're going to know if you're an athlete. So this is, this is going to work one of two ways for you because they are going to know you're an athlete. So if you show up and participate, they're going to help you at the end of the semester. But if you're never there, then they're going to bang you at the, at the end of semester.
[00:17:46] Speaker B: No doubt about it. I mean, we tell our players that, hey, if you show up to class, you sit in the front row, you pay attention, you know, if you're in a pinch at the end, they're more willing to help you. If you're there and you're participating, if you're not showing up, then, hey, that's. At the end of the day, that's on you. You know, there's not much you can do, but just, you know, if you. Like you said, if you just show up, put in your time, most people will work with you.
[00:18:09] Speaker A: Was the goal for you to always go back and coach with Coach Sproul?
[00:18:12] Speaker B: No. In all honesty, I wasn't sure I wanted to coach.
You know, something that was always kind of on my mind, but, you know, I just knew what it took. You know, I used to pick our coaches brains there a lot. Just what does a day look like? What does recruiting look like? You know, because obviously the recruiting coordinator is gone so much.
And at that age, I just wasn't sure I was willing to do that, you know, and I, in all honesty, if it was anybody but Coach Sproul, when he called me, I'm not sure I would have done it. But I've always been close with him. I grew up with his youngest son, so I've known him since I was probably 7 or 8 years old. We were always really close as a player and he just felt like one of those things, hey, if Coach Brow wants me to come help him, I feel like I should at least give it a try. And Lord, now I've been here nine years, so at what point we were.
[00:18:56] Speaker A: Like, oh, this is what I should.
[00:18:57] Speaker B: Be doing right away, you know, I'm, I'm a baseball rat anyways, you know, that's what tell people me and my brother could be more different. He's not a baseball rat. At all. You know, once he got done playing, he totally moved on. But that's just. I've always been a baseball fan, you know, and once I started doing it and you get to kind of see this side of it and pour into the kids and just kind of grow with them, you know, When I started coaching, I was 23. I mean, I was a kid, too. So we're all kind of figuring it out on the fly and just trying to get better, you know, they. They were with me. We're all kind of doing it together. So I think that's what's made it neat, is when you start so young like that, you don't really know what you're doing. You're just kind of trying to figure it out like everybody else.
[00:19:38] Speaker A: How do. How long take you to kind of figure out the recruiting landscape of things?
[00:19:43] Speaker B: Shoot, probably I feel like I still am, really. It's changed so much. You know, I think about recruiting, you just got to go out and do it, you know, I think everybody has an idea of what it looks like, but like anything, you just got to get on the road and do it. You. I mean, everybody knows what a good player looks like, you know, but for us, you got to find the one that's maybe, hey, he's got tools, but maybe he's a little raw to go play at a better school. So finding what that guy looks like. But I'll. Obviously, it's recruiting just relationship driven, you know, you gotta. You gotta make relationships, and that takes time, especially when you're a kid starting out. Luckily for me, I did have Coach Sproul, right. He's very respected in our industry. He's done it such a long time and, you know, being able to kind of piggyback off his relationships and him just kind of showing me the ropes of like, hey, you can go watch all the games you want, but you better find a way to connect with the players, connect with the coaches, and let them be someone that they can trust at the end of the day, because they want to send players to programs they trust that are going to get them better, and they care about the kids. That's how you get players.
[00:20:45] Speaker A: Would he send you out specifically to see guys? In the beginning, we would go together a lot.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: You know, we, you know, obviously with Hoover, they built a new complex in the last few years. So a lot of times I would just go with him, and he's kind of got his rules of things he's looking for. You know, he's like, hey, if you're going to watch a pitcher, like, when you get in the car, if you, you want to say, hey, what? I want to face that guy in a big situation. He's like, if. If you don't want to face him, then, hey, that's probably a guy you consider, you know, he's, he's big on going to watch high school games, you know, which is tougher to do in the spring, obviously, but he's like, you know, if you can go watch a kid throw against his high school rival, you can at least see what he's made of, you know, he's like, you may not throw well that night. That's baseball, right? We all have our tough nights. He's like. But you can see if he's a competitor, you know, that's something you can tell right away. Does he want to throw in the big moment?
Does he want the ball in his hand with the game on the line? He's like, that stuff you can see in a high school game that sometimes you may not be able to see in the summer.
[00:21:38] Speaker A: I loved you guys overall team approach in Grand Junction, by the way.
[00:21:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I appreciate it. Yeah, it was a, you know, it was a good group. You know, we had a lot of guys that returned from the year prior that we, you know, we made a run there at the end and had a good little running. Grand Junction, so. Good group. Fell up, fell a little short. That's probably. That was my fourth year. I've been there, and I, I don't know that I've ever seen a better field, really. One through 10. You know, it was.
We obviously end up getting the 10 seed, but I was like, I don't, I don't really know how you even could have done the seating for that tournament because, you know, it was a loaded tournament, so how would you see that?
[00:22:10] Speaker A: It's crazy. Bracket. Is there a way to do it? I. I just don't know.
[00:22:14] Speaker B: I don't, I don't.
I don't know the process because, like, for me, I'm not biased. I'm not an idiot. You know, I think if you're really going to do it, you got to go. Florida's got to be the one seed. Whoever wins. Florida, I mean, that's such a tough league, and I mean, that's such a tough state. Obviously, there's. There's probably four or five teams that are good enough to win the whole thing. Just from Florida alone. I'm not, I'm not too proud to say that, you know, obviously Texas is kind of the same way you mean you got your sand Jacks of the world. Obviously Blend's been on a good run. Your Navarro's, you know, obviously a Weatherford's there in 23 with us and McLendon. They are what they are. So I mean, I don't know then you could throw in your Iowa schools. You know, I don't, I don't know much about northern junior college baseball, but I mean, you do know what Iowa Western is and what they've been able to do out there. So I don't know. You know, you just.
[00:23:02] Speaker A: My thing is do, do you go to 12 regions or do you go to 12 teams that get there and you split them into like three team pods where it's basically round robin to get to the next round where your first round is three teams are playing each other to advance and then you kind of make a double elimination after that. I just don't know how to. With the 10 team bracket. I don't know how you make it better than the funny bracket because I.
[00:23:26] Speaker B: Think if you ask any coaches there, you'd almost, if you're going to, you could choose your seed. You'd probably rather play in that 4 and 5 game where you get the day off and then whether you win or lose, you get another day off. And it's so it's like if you really could choose, you probably want to do that.
[00:23:40] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that eliminates some of those extra days off for teams if you could go to 12 teams.
[00:23:46] Speaker B: But you know how it is. If you make it there, if you're the 10 seed, one seed, you don't really care. You're there and you just want to see how well you can play. So you don't really care.
[00:23:54] Speaker A: Have you adjusted your, your schedule for yourself since you've been there so many times? Do you, have you adjusted what you do or what the team does?
[00:24:03] Speaker B: Not really. You know, we, we usually fly out on a Tuesday. We'll practice for two or three days.
It's really, really the toughest thing for me. I just have always really struggled with where do you position your outfielders? You know, because the left field gap there is so big, but the left field wall is so short. So it's like, do you want to give up the, the triple and the gap or do you want to give up the flare? And I don't know. You know, that's probably the toughest thing. But no, we, we kind of have a routine when get out there and just try to tell the players, enjoy it you know, I don't take this trip for granted. It's really, really hard to get here. And you, everybody wants to win when they get there, but one team is going to leave here happy. Try to soak up the experience. You know, in a junior college game you may play in front of 50, 50 fans in a normal regular season game and you get to play in front of five to 8,000 there. Just, just soak it up, enjoy your trip and have fun. And obviously you want to play well, but if you don't, you could live with it.
[00:24:58] Speaker A: Had you ever been out to that part of the world before you went there for the first time?
[00:25:04] Speaker B: No, no, that's the first time I'd ever been out west.
[00:25:06] Speaker A: It's strikingly beautiful.
[00:25:08] Speaker B: Awesome. I went as a player in 12.
That was the first time I've been to that part of the country. And yeah, it's awesome. It's beautiful. They, it's such a well run tournament. You know, the town just kind of shuts down for the tournament. So you feel like a big leaguer in junior college and it's, you know, it's an experience of a lifetime.
[00:25:27] Speaker A: You mentioned pre, pre call here that you guys are going through max testing right now. How do you guys set that up for your max testing?
[00:25:35] Speaker B: So we partnered three years ago was the former player of ours. His name is Cal Tinsley. He runs a big shop in Birmingham called Tinsley Performance. He's, there's a ton of big leaguers that train with them, professional golfers and he does all of our strength stuff now. So he'll come down in August and we go through all the testing. It's very individualized.
We start that in August and it's just a slow build throughout the, throughout the semester. And you know that's, you just try to get to your max right there before Thanksgiving typically. And we've had good results from it. It's very baseball specific, very detailed and very individualized, which is obviously the best thing where you know, if me and you, our testing is different, we're going to do very different things in the weight room, which is nice. And it's especially for the players. You know, kids today are more into that than they've ever been and they know what they're talking about when you. So for us to partner with him and for him to do as well as he does with it, it's been a good partnership.
[00:26:29] Speaker A: What is one rep max? Three rep max?
[00:26:31] Speaker B: What, what is it with, with this program? It's just a one rep max so.
[00:26:35] Speaker A: Yep, seeing how just one time and then they're done one time and done.
[00:26:40] Speaker B: Now, they'll still do their accessory work during max week, but, yeah, it's kind of, you know, the big three are the front squat, the reverse lunge, and then your trap bar deadlift. So love it.
[00:26:50] Speaker A: And this is the best time to do it because then they get a little bit of a break.
[00:26:53] Speaker B: Get a little break. And we'll come back after Thanksgiving and, you know, we'll have finals week, and that's really it. And Lord, January 10th will be here before, you know, it'll be time to crank it back up.
[00:27:02] Speaker A: What are you expecting your position players to get done over the break?
[00:27:06] Speaker B: The main thing for me is I want them to have their arms in shape and make sure they're sprinting. You know, I tell them, enjoy your Christmas break. You know, a lot of the guys in our area of the country, they want to hunt now. That's fine. I'm like, find your two to three hours, get your lift in, make sure you're sprinting. You know, make sure you throw. And I think the hardest part when you come back is if. If you're in filters and their arms aren't in shape, you just. You can't. You can't do what you need to do when their arms aren't in shape. So I'll give them a plan when they leave.
Just try to. Obviously, like I tell them, you know, you. You see more injuries in the first month of the season than you see all year, and it's mostly because guys don't show up in shape. I'm like, I'm not asking you to run, Miles. I don't need you to do anything like that. Just sprint.
Do what we've done all fall, and you shouldn't have many problems, but if you don't do that, then you know how it is. You got the hamstring problems, you got the sore, tender arms all the time, and you can't do your team defenses, and it really just sets you back.
[00:28:00] Speaker A: So everybody focuses on the arms, too. But I don't think enough guys focus on the legs anymore. I just. Because that's for me. I mean, you're on your feet forever. You're going to be expected to sprint. You have a bunch of times where you might sprint twice in a game. You know, I think that part people get. It gets lost in the shuffle a little bit at times with the players, is trying to re. Emphasize, like the sprinting is just as important as the throwing piece, too.
[00:28:26] Speaker B: Well, you know how hamstrings are. If you pull a hamstring, I mean, you're really, you're fighting it the rest of the year. I mean, you never really, it never really seems to heal. So if you tell them like, hey, if you, if you can understand that showing up with your legs and running shape like you said, it's not like we're out here doing crazy conditioning when you get back. We don't do anything like that. It's really just, you want to be able to base run full speed. Well, if you're not ready to do that, then, you know, we don't have the three weeks to get ready to play a game. You know, that makes things difficult for everybody, so.
[00:28:58] Speaker A: And you guys have a quick turnaround to get ready too, when they get back.
[00:29:01] Speaker B: Less than a month. Yeah, I mean, I think really junior college, you can start playing the last weekend of January. Now, we don't start that early, but you know, a lot of teams do, which is really two and a half weeks.
[00:29:11] Speaker A: There's some benefit to that too. You don't need as many arms, but you have to make sure you guys.
[00:29:15] Speaker B: Are ready the way Coach Brown does. He almost treats our first month like a big league spring training. So, you know, we start conference about a month after our regular season starts and he just does a slow build, you know, and each week the pitch count goes up. So we use a ton of arms the first month and it probably costs you some games in between, but you want to get them ready for conference games because obviously for us that's, that's what counts. And you want to make sure they're healthy at the end of the year too. You know, if you. That's just always been his, the way he's done it here and he just, he wants to slow build it because like you said, if you send, you can send a pitcher home with a plan, but if it doesn't work out that way and they show up and you rush them, well, they're not, they're not going to help you. They're going to be hurt all year.
[00:30:02] Speaker A: With the transfer portal being as big as it is now. Do you guys take many guys at the break?
[00:30:08] Speaker B: We take guys at the break, but it has to be a very specific need. You know, could be a shortstop one year. You know, a couple years ago we picked up a couple hitters that we knew we probably needed to do, but we're not the program that's going to bring in five or six guys at Christmas. You know, we'd still like to build it from the fall, you know, very specific needs at the break because it's.
[00:30:30] Speaker A: A tough adjustment for those guys to come in at the semester.
[00:30:34] Speaker B: Well, it's, that's definitely. You're trying to fit them into a.
[00:30:37] Speaker A: Team, fitting in with a team like you. These guys have been together for, for a whole fall and you're getting there at the break. I just think that's a hard adjustment for guys.
[00:30:47] Speaker B: Tough adjustment there especially.
[00:30:49] Speaker A: Plus they're, they're leaving a place. So maybe confidence wise, not great because they're leaving a place for a reason.
[00:30:57] Speaker B: Leave them for a reason and then you go back to just like if you bring in a sophomore, you know, Coach Brown's theory has always been if you're bringing a sophomore, they have to play, you know, because obviously they have one semester. You're basically just renting them. So typically we don't bring in sophomores. You know, freshmen seem to make more sense for us mostly because I mean, you know how it is when you go to a new place, it doesn't always work out. There's that adjustment period to where you have to get comfortable and if that doesn't work out as a sophomore, then it just, it's tough on everybody.
[00:31:29] Speaker A: So how much time when you get into it in the fall, when school starts, when do you guys get into baseball? You get into baseball right away?
[00:31:35] Speaker B: We do, yeah. We usually start August 20th, give or take. Usually when school starts is typically our first day, first week, we go pretty slow just trying to get guys acclimated, let everybody get to know each other a little bit. But then we'll go, we can go really all the way to November 15th.
[00:31:53] Speaker A: What is the hitting development plan for you? I know you've done a great job with your hitters over the last nine years. What is kind of the hitting development plan that you use?
[00:32:02] Speaker B: You know, you try to do it in three buckets. When you, when you first start, you tell all your young guys, hey, I'm not going to say much to you. I really just want to evaluate. You know, you need to get comfortable. We haven't seen a ton of you yet. Like I kind of want the game to be the test. You know, we do a ton of early work. We'll, we'll set up all that and just try to get you game ready. And we typically start playing games around Labor Day.
So Labor Day to, let's call it mid October is when you're going to play your days typically.
And then from there we'll try to make More individual adjustments to the end of the fall, because now you have a little bit of a sample size, and you know how it is. You don't want to come in, just make all these changes to guys when they're not comfortable yet. And it just doesn't seem to work that way. So I just. I try to do it in that way. Just let the game tell us what to work on.
Because it's a lot easier to teach once you've had it. You know, you've played 10 dates and you've got 50 or 60 at bats, and then, you know, that last three to four weeks of the fall, you kind of try to attack those kind of things.
[00:33:05] Speaker A: What's your early work routine for them?
[00:33:08] Speaker B: A little bit different for each group. You know, I try to come in, we'll do some. I like to do a lot of machine stuff. I like to do angled stuff. We try to hit on the field as much as possible. You know, this year we have a ton of lefties, so trying to get them to learn how to stay on left, on left, breaking balls and stuff like that. But we, we do a lot of machine work in our early work.
Kind of goes back to playing for Coach Go, and his thing was you. You do all your offense before practice, and when you hit BP as a team, that's for defense, you know, and I've kind of adopted that model as well. So we try to get all that done before practice if we can.
And then when you. When you do your team bp, let's try to maybe mix in some more defensive stuff.
[00:33:48] Speaker A: What are your team BP rounds?
[00:33:51] Speaker B: Different each day. But, you know, if we want to. Some days you're working on maybe team offense, it could be hit and run. It could be just moving guys over. You know, I think a lot of players sometimes don't appreciate the value of a run. You know, I, you know, I. I know hitting the ground ball to second base or shortstop with runner on third and the infield back's not sexy, but it is a run.
And I'm like, you know, if you can teach them the value of a run. So we do a lot of that type stuff. It really just depends on the day. There's a lot of different ways you could do it, but really just try to beat the middle of the field in their head. Because we play in a bigger park. So if you. If you got a guy that wants to get uphill all the time, it's just really tough in our park. Coach Brown's a pitching guy. I think he'd back the fence up if he could. So just try to keep the ball low and try to keep it in the gaps and we just do a ton of that.
[00:34:40] Speaker A: What are some left on left tips?
[00:34:44] Speaker B: I think you really just got to think about driving the ball to left center. That doesn't necessarily mean you're trying to fillet the ball inside out, but it's going to keep your front side on the ball. That's going to allow you to stay on the breaking ball. I think that's obviously what gives left on left guys problems is they want to cheat that front side.
I grew up, my dad's left handed, so I've faced more left handed VP than probably anybody. You know how it is with a dad like that. So I think if you can think about keeping your front side on the ball as long as possible. You know, I, I think if you never told kids that left on left was an issue, they wouldn't even know it. So we try not to talk about it a ton. But you do know that at some point you're going to run into that guy that's going to give your team problems. So you just, you want to be able to try to get ahead of it if you can.
[00:35:30] Speaker A: We had a good conversation last weekend in D.C. about that. And if the scouting report or what we saw out of a left handed, if their breaking ball wasn't very good, I always left the lefties in.
[00:35:41] Speaker B: I think it's the way to go. You know, a lot of times you see right handers struggle with that big slow breaking ball. They get out front, they get around it a lot.
And I'm not sure for a lefty doesn't make more sense just to sit on that breaking ball because they're going to. If they throw the big looper, that's the one you can really drive.
[00:35:54] Speaker A: Yeah, we talked more about shifting their eyes out over the plate a little bit more at times to make sure pitches looked good.
You know, we just spent a little bit more time with shifting their eyes out over the plate. And that goes into driving the ball to left center a little bit too to. Because I think that's the hard part for lefties, especially with a big breaking ball, is they give up on it. A lot of times where you have to teach them through machine work, where this, the ball that maybe your eyes are telling you is a ball because it's up, that's the one you need to smash for sure. I totally agree because I don't know, we never, our lefties never really had an issue with it. I think some of it is we would leave them in too to give them some confidence.
I just don't see very many great left handed breaking balls where it's like, okay, I get it in the big leagues, but those breaking balls are way different than what a lot of the lower level guys are throwing at guys for sure. And they're so used to throwing arm side everything. Most lefties, because they're usually facing a bunch of right handed hitters where now if they got a lefty in the box, it makes them uncomfortable because they're worried about hitting them more than anything else.
[00:37:02] Speaker B: Why don't you say that about the lefty pitcher being uncomfortable? You've seen that more than ever. You know, Coach Brown talks about, he's like, you know, it used to be a time where lefties dominated left handed hitters. He's like. But now, you know, they almost seem uncomfortable.
[00:37:16] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Because I mean they're, they're just used to flinging everything up arm side and, and they really haven't had to work on a ton of glove side command where it's going to take their strengths away from them by leaving your left handers in there.
[00:37:30] Speaker B: No, I totally agree with you. I totally agree.
[00:37:35] Speaker A: How has your training for hitters changed since you played? I mean, what, I mean you've been you around some really good hitting guys, so I'm sure you picked up a ton along the way playing.
[00:37:44] Speaker B: You know, honestly I, I do kind of a mixed bag of what I, what I've kind of learned from all those guys. Just kind of take the things you like, take some, you know, maybe throw out some things you don't or some things that we don't have the resources to do.
And really I do a lot of the same stuff. You know, like I told you about Zach Dillon. We did a ton of drills with him that I still do today. Um, Coach Cohen, you know, I didn't know it at the time, you know, when I became a coach, you start trying to listen to other coaches talk and you listen to different styles and you hear people talk about external goals.
You know, Coach Cohen's really known as a really good hitting guy and people ask me all the time about him. I'm like, you know, it's weird.
I didn't know at the time that's what he was doing. All he did was set an external goal and every drill we did was to match it, you know, and you know, there was a point system to everything we did.
And I, and ironically the Point systems always, hey, if you hit a line drive in the middle of the field, you're going to get the highest level of point. That's all he was doing, was teaching that. He just. We just didn't talk about mechanics, you know, he didn't. It wasn't like he was talking about all these things. He really was just like, hey, that's the goal. You figure out how to do it.
[00:38:48] Speaker A: And I thought he also had a ton of drills, too. Like, I had Coach Collins drill, like, and. And I think if you have that many drills in your bag, I think it takes care of a lot of the mechanical stuff because there's so many different drills.
[00:39:01] Speaker B: Yeah, I tell people, you know, when you did it, when we did early work there, there was a T station every day. And, I mean, if you've seen his DVDs and stuff from back in the day, I mean, I tell guys, I could give you 100 tea drills right now. So, you know, you do those every day. You. You bond it every day off the machine, you maybe have an offset drill. And then on the other side, which. That's the beauty of having that huge Palmero center is you can. You can get a lot done in that space. And you flip around the other side, you may have the two big breaking balls going. You do that every day, and I kind of run it similar here.
[00:39:33] Speaker A: You. You run elevated machine stuff?
[00:39:36] Speaker B: I do, yeah. I like it. You know, it's.
I tell guys it's challenging. You know, not every day is challenging. You don't want to make it to where we're facing big league breaking because we don't face that at our level, you know, But I was like, you know, when I was in Mississippi State, we had a quote in our locker room, and I thought it was the strangest thing at the time because, you know, you go in all these locker rooms and you have all the quotes, and all. All our said was confidence comes from skill acquisition. And when I was a player, I was like, you know, what an odd thing. It just didn't make sense to me. But, you know, now that you're older, you're like, it makes all the sense in the world. You know, if you want to get real confidence, acquire the skill. You know, it's. It's like riding the bike. You know, once you learn, you never forget. You know, once you learn how to bunt the right way, you never forget. Once you learn how to stay on that breaking ball, that's real confidence. So if you want to have confidence, acquire the skill, Like I said, when I was 22 years old, it didn't make much sense, but now it's like, man, that's. It makes all the sense in the world.
[00:40:36] Speaker A: How are you teaching? Bonding, guys.
[00:40:39] Speaker B: It's funny, when I was.
When I was in college, I played summer ball in Santa Barbara for a guy named Bill Pentard. I don't know if you know Bill. He's kind of a legend in that space.
And I could always run, but I wasn't a great Bunner. I could sacrifice, but. And he was like, listen, when you leave here this summer, you. You need to be able to do this, you know?
And he taught me a way to do. It's very unorthodox.
It's something I never learned, you know, the way he teaches it. But I teach it the exact same way to my lefties that Bill taught me. I was really good at it as a player. When I came back, I feel like it changed my career because you. When you can bunt for a hit like that, especially, you feel like you can't slump. You know, you always have that, but you know, you're going to face that guy. That. That's going to give you fits. But if you. If you have that, if you can bunt for a hit, you know, you always got a shot. So I really. I teach it the same way Bill taught me. I pulled early in the fall. I'll bring all my lefties out and I'll tell them, look, I'm going to teach you how to do this.
You're going to think I'm crazy. I said, you're just going to have to trust me. Like, this is a. This is tried and true. This guy's been teaching this for years.
He's won a lot of games. He's coached a lot of big leaguers. You just need to trust me on this.
[00:41:49] Speaker A: And so what's the difference with the way he's teaching it?
[00:41:52] Speaker B: So for a lefty, you know when you're. If you're dragging. So we're going down the third baseline. You know, when I grew up, I was taught to drop my back foot and try to set my angle that way.
So where Bill thought it was is he's like, you're gonna take your front foot and step to the front part of the batter's box. So almost like you're going to step towards third base, if that makes sense. And when you take your step, it's going to set your angle for you. Right away, he's like, lay it down and just go and similar to the.
[00:42:23] Speaker A: Way I taught it, just to get everything lined up with the first baseline to get parallel.
[00:42:27] Speaker B: That's all it did. And you know, for a push, it was kind of the same way. He's like, hey, draw your line to the four hole and really just think about taking your back leg, getting down that line, and just trust your angle and go.
[00:42:39] Speaker A: And we did two different footworks on the push for lefties to give them the option. One, one the front foot moved and then one, the back foot moved.
[00:42:49] Speaker B: We have guys that do both. We have some guys that prefer the front foot. And it's like, like we talked about earlier. Hey, if it works for you, I'm good with it. You know what, obviously bonding, that's something that takes time. You need to be comfortable. So if you're more comfortable that way, I'm all good for it.
[00:43:02] Speaker A: Some of those depend on where the first baseman was playing too. First baseman was deep. Then you had some wiggle room up the line. If the first baseman was in, then you wanted to get it more towards the second baseman.
[00:43:10] Speaker B: Yep. It's just such a skill to have, you know, I tell guys, look, I don't want to be the team that's, you know, we're not bringing you here to bunt. I'm like, but it's such a good, you know, a good skill to have. I'm like, you know, I want to.
[00:43:21] Speaker A: Hit 400 over 350. Or do you want to hit 350 over 300? Like, that's the difference over 250, like there. I mean, it's, it is a 50 point difference if you're able to do it for sure.
[00:43:32] Speaker B: You know, I mean, look at Kentucky last year. You know, they, they bunt like crazy, but they all, I mean, they, they, they bang too. It's like, hey, be able to do both, it's just another tool in your bag is all it is. You know, I tell him, I had my older brother, he hit for power. You know, he hit a ton of doubles, but he could also really drag bunt. So now you have a guy like him who's hitting in the middle of the order. Well, he drops out of drag button. It's a hit every time.
[00:43:56] Speaker A: And I can tell is being able to do everything thing.
[00:44:00] Speaker B: I've never had a guy that could. That, that, that was a good bunner that didn't hit. You know, I think it translates your eyes.
[00:44:07] Speaker A: That's a skill acquisition piece too. Like, okay, they can pick up new skills even if they've never Done it. The elite performers out there, when they're asked to perform a new skill, it might take them a little bit, but eventually they're going to pick up that skill.
[00:44:20] Speaker B: Yo, for sure. It's like, you know, your eyes are tracking the ball to the barrel. Like that translates to. That's what hitting is, right? You're tracking pitches, you're seeing it to the barrel. Like, I'm not gonna. I'm not maybe asking my three hole to bunt, but I'm telling you, if you're a good boner, it does translate to you being a good hitter.
[00:44:37] Speaker A: Yeah. We ran a youth camp in D.C. last weekend, and there were so many kids that had never bonded. And I have a pretty tried and true bunt progression. Starts with top hand catch only, then top hand only with the barrel, and then two hand. And by the end of that 12 minutes, they're all able to have a little bit of feel for it. But I told them the same thing. I'm like, this is more about you tracking pitches in than it is about bunning at this point. And I think it allows with the young kids, too, with softer baseballs or tennis balls or wiffle balls. They get over a little bit of the fear of the baseball, too. By doing that. I think it. I think it creates some confidence in some young little hitters with not being as scared of getting hit with the pitch.
[00:45:19] Speaker B: No. Yeah, I think that's a great idea.
[00:45:22] Speaker A: What do you attribute the power jump numbers and hitting right now? And it's across all levels of college.
[00:45:28] Speaker B: I think the bats are a little hotter and I think the balls are hot, too. You know, I.
If you. Like I said, we have a big park here and we. We've hit more home runs in the last few years than we ever have. And it's. I can't prove that the bats are hotter, that the balls are hotter, but, I mean, the scores don't lie, you see. You know, you're told that pitching is better than it's ever been. I do think pitcher stuff is better than it's ever been, but the offensive numbers are crazy. And I. I don't know. I think it's the balls, honestly.
[00:45:58] Speaker A: I like where that where it's at, though. I don't think we need to tinker around with it, with anything right now. I just. You were coming ahead of the BB core era, but that was the worst thing that ever happened to college baseball when they went to those bats.
[00:46:11] Speaker B: Oh, it was terrible. That was, you know, my brother's senior year. That was the first year of bbcor and they were horrible. Horrible. My freshman year of college was the second year of BB Core. And I mean, I tell our guys now, you guys have no idea what you're getting to swing now compared to what they were. And they were so dead. There weren't a ton of models. You kind of just got what they.
[00:46:30] Speaker A: Gave you and it was a lead pipe. I. You're better off pulling out the bats we used in the 70s and the 80s, honestly, than those bats.
[00:46:39] Speaker B: I think a good wooden bat would have been much better.
[00:46:42] Speaker A: I tried to get our coach at Iowa to let us. We had a contract with Louisville Slugger. And he was like, you're crazy. I'm like, we. The first time we used those bats was our. Before our first game in the spring. We didn't get to use them all fall because they were late getting them to us.
[00:46:57] Speaker B: Yep, yep, they were the.
[00:46:59] Speaker A: Look, it ruined. It ruined some of our hitters that year. Like they couldn't get a ball out of the infield during batting practice.
And we got about two weeks in. I said, hey, can we start using wood? Cause these guys rake and summer. He was like, we can. I'm like, I think we should because it's going to cost us a bunch of games.
[00:47:15] Speaker B: Yeah, it was, it was crazy how dead they were.
[00:47:20] Speaker A: You couldn't feel the sweet spot.
That was the thing for me is like you, you couldn't even feel if you got the ball in the sweet spot or not. You couldn't even feel it.
[00:47:30] Speaker B: No. Yeah. I mean, I remember at the time Alabama was using Nike bats and it was like my, you know, in the next year, Alabama, Nike didn't even make a bat anymore after that year. And it was like, you know, and obviously with us being here, they're giving Shelton some of those old bats. And I'm like, we did not want to use these.
[00:47:49] Speaker A: How are you developing team defense? You guys led NJCA in double plays last year. You had 54. So how are you helping with team defense?
[00:47:56] Speaker B: You know, we break it down early in the fall and go real slow. So we had the last two years we had West Helms, who, you know, 12 year big leaguer, his son played for us, was a really good player for us, and Wes helped us coach and we kind of did this progression where you, you start, you start, you start in the fall, you roll it, you do it slow and until you can do it right that way we'll slowly back it up. And then, you know, we've had a lot of success with it, we take it. We do a ton of defense. That's kind of how our program is built. We're going to pitch and we're going to play elite defense.
And I think just playing balls live, you know, I don't know if we do anything crazy because I don't. You know, we don't. Probably don't do anything that anybody else doesn't do. But there is an emphasis on playing balls live in bp. If you were to come watch us take BP any day, guys are diving, they're throwing balls across the infield every day. And I just think there's nothing like getting a ball that's live, you know, you don't know it's coming to you. A fungo. You know it's coming. When you're in a BP setting, you don't know where the ball is going. You have to react, read the hop, and obviously finish the play by making a good throw. And we do it every day.
[00:49:03] Speaker A: So, you know, giving defenders time to make those plays while the BP guys throwing.
[00:49:08] Speaker B: We do. Yep, yep. We give them time. So try to give them time to get back to their position. Sometimes I kind of like to do it where they're out of position, where they maybe have to go make a play that they normally wouldn't make.
But, yeah, we do that every day live. BP is. That's every day.
[00:49:22] Speaker A: You guys tracking those for points defensively?
[00:49:25] Speaker B: Not every day. We do at times. Sometimes we'll split them up into two groups where we may. May have a winner and a loser that day.
But no, not. We don't track it all the time. But, you know, it's like we tell them, you know, if you want to. If you want to play for us, you got to play defense. That's Coach Brow saying. It's like, hey, tell me how you can help us win with hitting being the least. So if you can't. If you can't play defense, there's only. There's only one spot on the field for a guy that can't play defense, and that's a Dharma it. So if you're going to play here, you have to play good defense.
[00:49:58] Speaker A: Love it. And that carries you guys over the whole season then, too, for sure.
[00:50:02] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, that's. That's how we're built. You getting those. I mean, we. We scored a ton of runs last year. We were as offensive we ever. As we've ever been. But if you go look at our scores in our regional, you know, we won games five to four, you know, four to three, just tight. If you're going to win close games, you can't give the other team freebies. You know, I think in our semifinal game at the, at the state tournament, we made two unbelievable defensive plays that probably won us the game. And you just, you know, you kind of fall back to your training and those guys have made those plays hundreds and hundreds of times throughout the fall and spring. And you know, they show up on the biggest stage for you.
[00:50:39] Speaker A: How much of that is just cleaning guys angles up in the outfield, in the infield a lot.
[00:50:44] Speaker B: You know, I think a lot of times guys, they want to catch every, especially middle guys, they want to catch everything with two hands all the time. And I'm like, you know, you're more athletic with one. You know, my first year coaching, we had Travis Fryman's son played here. You know, Travis, long time big leaguer and he isn't, I mean, an unbelievable baseball mind. I still think he's, I think he's Indians infield coordinator to this day.
And he would just come out and he, I'd listen to him talk defense and I'm like, you know, he makes it so simple. But the way he, the way he described it to me and I still teach it this way to this day is like, hey, if you, if you're going to play for the Cleveland Indians at the time, whether you're Francisco Lindor or a guy in low way, you have to make every play at you and every play in front of you. That's all we ask. If you can do that, we can live with the rest. And you know, I think a lot of guys, they want to catch everything to hand and they, they break down like a little leaguer. I'm like, hey, just get the good hop. Use your feet to get the good hop. That's something I didn't, I never knew as a kid, you know, that your feet are everything in the infield. If you can just use your feet to get the hop, infield becomes much easier.
[00:51:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I think when you really start to pay attention to it, more balls than not are caught one handed. Anything.
[00:51:59] Speaker B: Yep, for sure. You know, guys are more comfortable doing it that way.
[00:52:02] Speaker A: Their range is better, they're, they're looser with what they're doing. And yes, we have to secure the ball after we catch, but more times than not, it's going to be a one handed catch.
[00:52:10] Speaker B: Yep, I agree. You know, that's hard for the, When.
[00:52:13] Speaker A: I work youth camps with the parents and, and the youth coaches, they look at me Crazy when we start talking about, I'm like, no, let's, we're going to work one hand a catch here.
[00:52:22] Speaker B: Well, it's like, I'm like, you tell them like, okay, bend down, reach this way. Do it with two hands and do it with one. Which, which one do you feel more athletic in? They're like every time it's well, I feel more athletic. One hand, I'm like, well, you know, that's probably how you should do it.
[00:52:35] Speaker A: Do you have a fail forward moment, something you thought was going to set you back but looking back now helped you move forward?
[00:52:43] Speaker B: I don't know if there's a moment in particular but you know, I just think about all the, just the players it doesn't work out for. You know, I think everybody always talks about the guys they have, the all Americans, the guys in pro ball.
For me, you know, I think about the guys that didn't work out for what could we have done different? What could, what could I have done better to help that, you know, help that guy reach his dream? And it didn't work out. So for me I think about those guys a lot.
[00:53:11] Speaker A: But that also makes you a better coach too because that gives you some self reflection. Because I think we all coach guys along the way that we felt like we're going to be sure fire everyday players really successful and it just for whatever reason it didn't work out for them. And I think that gives you a chance to reflect as a coach too about maybe what I can improve to help the neck. Because you're going to get another one of those kids along the way. You coach long enough, you're going to get plenty of those kids that okay, this maybe didn't work for this kid, but okay, that's an adjustment. If I get the same type of kid here, going forward allows you to maybe self reflect and get an adjustment going forward for the next, next group.
[00:53:48] Speaker B: Well, I think you got to hold yourself accountable too. You know, you ask your players to hold their self accountable. Well, hey, at the end of the day they're a product of you. I mean you, you set the environment, you, you control the practice plan, you control their training environment every day. So like if a player' feeling ultimately a lot of times it is, it is on us, you know. And you know, you got to have some humility to look at it that way. And I don't think it's always easy to look at it that way. I think our, you know, your ego gets in the way where you think you have it and it's like, no, that's not necessarily the case. Like, maybe, maybe you didn't do the right thing for that, that kid, and you're the reason it didn't work out. I mean, you have to look at it that way. And I think it allows you to keep growing as a coach and to continue to get better, if you look at it that way.
[00:54:32] Speaker A: And also look up 5 to 10 years from now and see what they're doing in the real world.
[00:54:37] Speaker B: For sure.
[00:54:37] Speaker A: I mean, because baseball, I mean, baseball's hard. Like, it's not always going to work out for every kid. But if that kid's successful in whatever they're doing in life five, ten years down the road, then maybe you treat him like he was supposed to be treated.
[00:54:48] Speaker B: I'll tell our guys, if I could give. I'm like, if I could give you one piece of advice, I'm like, look, I. I failed. I've. I've done it. Fellas. Like, you have such a small window of your life to do what you're doing now. Like, I know at the time, fall practice, it's a grind. It seems like you're going to do this forever, fellas. It's so small, you know, Soak it in. Be able. When you're, when you get to the end of your career, whether you're a big leaguer, whether you don't make it out of junior college, whatever that, whatever the case may be, be able to look yourself in the mirror and say, hey, I gave myself every possible chance to reach my full potential. And if you did that now, you can live with it, you can move on. But what you don't want to be is that guy at the bar at age 35 who's telling everybody how good he could have been.
But you didn't make your grade, you couldn't stay out of trouble, whatever that case may be. You aren't focused enough. Like, just be able to do everything you can to reach your full potential and you can live with the results.
[00:55:47] Speaker A: I think those are the youth coaches that make everybody miserable. The ones that we're disgruntled with their.
[00:55:53] Speaker B: Playing career, no doubt. Our guys ask me all the time, I'm like, fellas, I wasn't anything special as a player. That's why, that's why I'm coaching here. You know, I'm like, now, did I play with some awesome players? Yes. Did I play for big time coaches? Absolutely. And I have some awesome experiences that I can share with you. But hey, I'm not the Guy that's telling you mold. I don't have that many good stories, so.
[00:56:15] Speaker A: Well, kids now too, they just want to know what you're going to do for them. Now as much like that's a big.
[00:56:20] Speaker B: Piece of it, it can be very transactional, it seems like at times. But you know, I think that's, that's one of the cool things about junior college, I think. And I think most junior college coaches would tell you this is like, hey, we've had guys drafted out here, we've had big leaguers, you know, we have some really high end players this year. But you all feel the same out here. You know, it just, it's, it's. Everybody's grinding, everybody's trying to get to the next level.
You know, you're all sharing that common bond with each other that you know that you have the, the term now. The juco bandit, right? And it's like, that's what makes it neat. You know, everybody's kind of pulled in the same direction. It just doesn't feel like there's as many egos at this level with the players.
And they all.
[00:57:02] Speaker A: I love my junior college guys. I loved them. I just, there wasn't as much entitlement. They worked hard, they went to class. I just, I loved my junior college guys I coached over the years.
[00:57:13] Speaker B: That's what I tell our guys. I'm like, hey, if a four year school is recruiting a junior college guy, like this is what they want you to be. They want you to be hard nose. They want you to be blue car. They want the dirt bag. Like that's, that's what a junior college player is supposed to be. That doesn't mean there's not some extremely high end players because there are. But I'm like, if you're going to be a plug and play guide, let's call it Alabama. Like they want the juco. Got to be gritty, like that's what you need to be. There's no such thing as juco prima donnas at those, at that level. You know, no one wants a, no one wants a junior college prima donna. Like you were in junior college for a reason.
Just go, just go be that guy. Like if you, if you want to, if you wanted to work out at that level, be a dirt bag.
[00:57:53] Speaker A: How long did it take you to get comfortable coaching third base?
[00:57:56] Speaker B: You know, I've done it since the first game I coached there, so.
[00:57:59] Speaker A: Oh, that's awesome.
[00:58:00] Speaker B: He threw me right out there.
[00:58:02] Speaker A: Yeah, that's awesome.
[00:58:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I've coached first Since I first started coaching. Coach third. Sorry. You know, it really, it felt normal, you know, I kind of just. Did it just kind of go off, Phil, you know, I mean, obviously there's rules I learned. You know, like I said, when you first start coaching, you, you think you know a lot of things about baseball, then you realize you don't know anything. So really just kind of learning certain things about, hey, maybe this is a good time to be aggressive. Maybe this is a good time not to be depending on who's coming up, obviously, and maybe your matchups. But, you know, it felt normal, really. I think I. Sometimes I feel like I have a better feel for the game when I'm out there just being closer to the action. That may sound weird, but do you.
[00:58:44] Speaker A: Position yourself different than when you first started now on different plays with guys?
[00:58:49] Speaker B: I do, yeah. When I first started, I just, I didn't, like I said, didn't really know that that was even a thing, but yeah, I do.
Trying to find, you know, maybe find some from a base running standpoint or maybe give a guy a better advantage of being able to pick me up earlier easier.
But when you go back to base running, I, you know, I tell our guys, like, hey, you really only need me to tell you to stop. You know, I think if we.
Base running is so instinctual and I do think it can be taught, but base running is so instinctual that, you know, one, if you do this the way it's supposed to be done, all you, all you need me to do is tell you to stop. You know, in the back of your mind, your score until I'm telling you not to.
[00:59:28] Speaker A: I think the elite ones and, and as these are the small things that I still watch for base. Brunner, second base hit through and they back up. The third base coach is backing up towards home plate to get a longer read on whether the guy's going to score or not. I think that's even at the big league level, you see it anytime there's a guy thrown out at the plate that maybe shouldn't have been or they should have held a guy up. The third base coach isn't back far enough towards home plate.
[00:59:58] Speaker B: Yep, I get down in there pretty good. Sometimes it's probably a little too far, but not. I want to, I want to know, you know, because I don't want to come back in that dugout and Coach Brown get me. So. But yeah, I agree with you there.
[01:00:10] Speaker A: That was trial and error for me. I got a, I got a guy blown up in The Cape League, because I didn't back up enough. I tried to send a guy too soon. And God bless Coach. When I got in the dugout, he was like, hey, you got to start backing up towards home plate because he goes, you need a longer look on that. But, yeah, I got a guy blown up at home.
[01:00:27] Speaker B: Not something like when you. You know, when I first started. And that. That's something that wouldn't even have crossed my mind, you know, like, hey, there's not a. You never. Never really got a playbook. You know, I think that's what I've probably enjoyed coaching the most about Coach. Coaching them with Coach Sproul is like, hey, go out there and figure it out. Like, I'll. I'll reel you in if I need to. Like, if I'm going to help you, like, just go. Go screw some stuff up. It's. That's the only way you're going to learn. You know, I can give you a playbook and I can tell you everything to do, but at the. At the end of the day, you got to go figure it out yourself. And do. Allowed me to do that.
[01:00:59] Speaker A: How great is that for you? And that gives you some freedom, too, because, you know, you can make some mistakes, and it's not going to completely crush you.
[01:01:06] Speaker B: I think that's probably the beauty of working here with him is we're so close. He's really like a dad to me. So it's almost like he just lets you go out there and he's like, hey, I'm going to let you run the offense. You're not qualified to run the offense, but I'm going to let you run the offense. Hey, you can go recruit. You can coach the defense. Like, hey. And each year he's kind of, you know, allowed me to have more responsibility in different areas. And when you. When you. When you're not scared to fail, I think it gives you a lot of freedom, right? Because at the end of the day, it's not like he's. He's gonna just. Just tear me up when I get in there. Like I said, we can have. We can have tough conversations. When you have a relationship with somebody like that, you know, he can pull you to the sides. Hey, you know, you probably don't. This is why you don't make that decision. Or, hey, you know, that's. Maybe. That's love for sure, you know, and that's what makes it awesome. We kind of even each other out. You know, I'm probably the more high, strong, high energy guy and he's very laid back, in which, you know, he's done it so long, he's. There's nothing he hasn't seen.
It's been a good relationship for sure.
[01:02:12] Speaker A: What are some final thoughts before I let you go?
[01:02:15] Speaker B: You know, I appreciate you doing this for us. You know, I think it's cool to see a lot of junior college coaches get these opportunities. I think, like you. Like we talked about the high school guy earlier, it's like, hey, maybe, maybe look into junior college if you're not getting the offer you want. I think you'd be surprised how many great programs there are, how many good players there are, and really the kind of resources that schools are putting into junior and college athletics. Now you can look around the country, especially in our area of the country. I mean, you see what the Texas schools have. I mean, their school spending a lot of money to make sure players get a great experience. And I mean, our school is no different. Our school that gives us a ton of resources to be successful.
Just be open to that opportunity. But I appreciate what you do for junior college coaches. I think it's cool to see guys get these opportunities.
[01:02:59] Speaker A: I love this part of it because I see as many games as anybody across all levels. I know how good it is at every level. And so I do really try to reiterate to people that are looking. I'm like, you need to look at every school in your area, even outside your area, at every level, because you're going to be really surprised and happily surprised what schools out there have that you would have never even looked at.
[01:03:21] Speaker B: Yep. No, I agree.
[01:03:22] Speaker A: Thanks for your time, sir. Appreciate you.
[01:03:24] Speaker B: Awesome. I appreciate you. Yeah.
[01:03:26] Speaker A: Congrats again to Coach Vickerson on all the success he's having at Shelton State. It's refreshing to see someone stay loyal to the program and area that raised them. Best of luck to the Bucs in the upcoming season.
Thanks again to John Litchfield, Zach Hale, Matt west, and Antonio Walker in the ABC office. For all the help on the podcast, feel free to reach out to me via email, r brownleebca.org Twitter, Instagram and TikTok CoachBabca direct message me via the MYBCA app. This is Ryan Brownlee signing off for the American Baseball Coaches Association. Thanks and leave it better for those behind you.
[01:04:14] Speaker B: Wait for another day.
[01:04:19] Speaker A: And the world will always eternal and your.
[01:04:24] Speaker B: Love is never for your name and you know that way.
[01:04:33] Speaker A: Wait for another day.
